Curiousity about Chaotic Good in general (and Holy Liberator in particular)

[Nerull]

I recently installed the Oversight mod (especially for the alignment/class fixes), and noticed the Holy Liberator kit was added for Paladins. For those of you who do not know what a Holy Liberator is, it is a holy warrior that is all about freedom from tyranny and oppression. He is as strongly Chaotic Good as the regular paladin is strongly Lawful Good. Thus, he would very much be against the system (especially the farther from good that it varied), and would be a champion of the downtrodden.

Of course, whenever something new enters my game, the big tinkerer inside of me comes out. I was wondering what everyone thought about the roleplaying aspect of such a character, who is so strong in his beliefs like the paladin, but can steal from bad guys, break the rules, etc. I have some general ideas:

• Party would consist of Jan (his chaotic means just draws me to him), Jaheira (romance + Harpers go right along with my goals), and Minsc (can you get any more chaotic than him?); Imoen and ToB NPC would be added later, and those slots would remain blank until they are added, if possible. Also, Cernd and Valygar would be added to do their quests, then dropped thereafter. Finally, I would NEVER allow Mazzy, Keldorn, Aerie or Anomen into the party. Nalia would be out, too (can do her quest, but she is too "uppity" for my guy, despite looking out for the less fortunate).
• Pickpocket all evil characters (and ALL nobles) for everything they are worth.
• Give the maximum amount to all beggars and downtrodden people I come across (replenishing my funds from nobles and evil guys).
• Refuse the Paladin stronghold and refuse to wield the holy weapons (those are for stuck up, Lawful paladins. Not me).
• Rescue Imoen A.S.A.P. (can't bear her being imprisoned).
• If a merchant shows up as evil, then steal EVERYTHING from their store that you can.
• Ask for rewards from all evil quest givers, and also from Lawful temples, nobles, and the knights.
• Are there any churches that are within one step of Chaotic Good other than Lathander? If so, donate money equal to the amount you steal from evil merchants.
• Any evil or cursed equipment that you get would be sold to a merchant that would seem unlikely to sell such stuff to evil people (i.e. they would keep the stuff from falling in the wrong hands). Any ideas on that?

Anyway, I was just brainstorming this stuff at work when I was bored today, and would just like to hear some opinions on the topic (don't know how interested anyone is, but just thought I would throw it out there and see what I got).

Thanks in advance for any responses!

[Zuvio]

This sounds like a great RP adventure. Nice creative thinking Nerull!

[Minchandre]

I know Selune is CG, but don't know if there's a temple for her. Ilmater too, I think (temple is in slums, above the Copper Coronet)

[Faceman]

Well, a chaotic character in general is a very much out of control righteous avenger.
Like Paul Kersey (Death Wish) or "Dirty Harry" he DOES care for the law but only if it suits his beliefs.
I wouldn't reject holy weapons and churches so much. After all these avenger-types tend to think that they are godsend (Boondock Saints anyone?) and I wouldn't refuse the stronghold but rather feel free to screw up the missions if they do not suit your alignment (if somebody insults you for example).
Overall I like your "Robin Hood" approach to the character however.
Kick those nobles' posteriors!

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Zuvio: This sounds like a great RP adventure. Nice creative thinking Nerull!

Actually, I always think of LG paladins as a bit of the extreme case of Lawful Good. Always trying to keep their word, always following orders, always doing their orderly path to doing the right thing. Thus, I'm simply thinking of how a CG paladin would be. He would be just as extreme, but would be very anti-establishment and very much going his own way. Still a little hard to keep him from going to CN or CE in behavior, though; you need to keep in mind that you are anti-establishment because the establishment is a bad thing that puts people down, and that you are trying to stand up for the little guy and make his or her lot better.

Originally posted by Minchandre: I know Selune is CG, but don't know if there's a temple for her. Ilmater too, I think (temple is in slums, above the Copper Coronet)

Ilmater is a LG diety, otherwise I would be more in line with him. Selune is a CG diety, so she would be better, but I have not seen any temples to her. The only ones I have seen are Lathander, Talos, Helm, Ilmater, Waukeen, and Umberlee (I'm sure I've probably missed one or two). Thus, out of those choices, the only one he would get along with is Lathander.

Originally posted by Faceman: IWell, a chaotic character in general is a very much out of control righteous avenger. Like Paul Kersey (Death Wish) or "Dirty Harry" he DOES care for the law but only if it suits his beliefs. I wouldn't reject holy weapons and churches so much. After all these avenger-types tend to think that they are godsend (Boondock Saints anyone?) and I wouldn't refuse the stronghold but rather feel free to screw up the missions if they do not suit your alignment (if somebody insults you for example). Overall I like your "Robin Hood" approach to the character however. Kick those nobles' posteriors!

Actually, he would avoid the stronghold like the plague. The three gods that sponsor the order are Torm (god of duty and honor), Tyr (god of law and justice), and Helm (god of guardianship). They are probably the three most lawful dieties in the realm, thus WAY out of his line of thinking. The entire Order preaches duty and order; my guy would just tell them respectfully that he was not interested, and leave. In fact, he would not do certain quests for certain of the temples:

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For example, he would do the Unseeing Eye for the Temple of Helm for a reward, but why would he ever help them make a statue for their god?

Now, the holy weapons might not be a bad idea. However, they still are associated with the lawful brand of good, and thus would probably be avoided. There are some nice good-only weapons that come later that he would gladly use (especially in ToB).

[ 06-24-2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Nerull ]

[Faceman]

My point was that although he isn't lawful he would consider himself to be.
"I am the law" is his motto so that wouldn't stop him from using lawful weaponry.
I also think that he might do some quests for the order which he believes to be some sissy lawkeepers while he is the actual hero to SPOILER
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slay the Ettins or the Baron in the stronghold quest
BUT not the one to watch over a spoiled child of course thus breaking up this mission (however)

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Faceman: My point was that although he isn't lawful he would consider himself to be. "I am the law" is his motto so that wouldn't stop him from using lawful weaponry. I also think that he might do some quests for the order which he believes to be some sissy lawkeepers while he is the actual hero to SPOILER - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - slay the Ettins or the Baron in the stronghold quest BUT not the one to watch over a spoiled child of course thus breaking up this mission (however)

Yes, the average CG person would do that. That's because they don't necessarily think of themselves as chaotic, they just don't like people pushing around others and repressing them.

However, a Holy Liberator (especially if you read the PnP version) is very consciously Chaotic. He actually goes out of his way to snub the lawful types. Note, LG would mainly be the butt of jokes and pranks, as he still respects the fact that they are good. However, he also would not go out of his way to deal with them, avoiding it whenever possible. LN (like the Temple of Helm) is completely avoided if possible; they are all about rules and nothing else, and that would turn him off completely. LE is the antithesis of everything he believes in (the oppressive authority in action).

That's why I stated he would have nothing to do with Aerie, Keldorn, Mazzy, and Anomen; they are all lawful. Aerie he might, simply because she acts more neutral good than lawful good much of the time. However, the other three "sticks in the mud" would only be added if they had dialog options to make them look foolish (i.e. embarass the hell out of them, and possibly try to get them to loosen up).

[Lemmy]

Nerull:
Ilmater is a LG diety, otherwise I would be more in line with him.

So, you reject him because of his alignment? As Minsc is fond of saying, "Swords, not words!" Myself, I'd judge them by action.

I don't know the agenda of Illmater's priests, but from the little the Illmaterites do in-game, they seem to help the downtrodden quite a deal more than other priests. Further, Illmater has small, quaint temples in the neediest part of town (Slums). If anything, Lathander's temple has more than enough wealth. (Just look at that ostentatious thing!) And, worse yet, it's in a rich part of town (clean, too) which I dare say is inaccessible to the truly downtrodden.

As for other temples: There's a Temple of Oghma in the Docks District. IIRC, Oghma's Good, but I don't recall his ethics. His followers don't seem the "help the downtrodden" type, though.

Pickpocket all evil characters (and ALL nobles) for everything they are worth.

Donating the gold to a temple afterward would seem very "Robin Hood," if you trust them to put the gold to good use.

-Lem

[IronDragon]

There's a Temple of Oghma in the Docks District. IIRC, Oghma's Good, but I don't recall his ethics. His followers don't seem the "help the downtrodden" type, though.

Oghma is Neutral not good. The priests of the temple of Oghma is likely to help the downtrodden in the form of education, legal aid, and interaction with the bureaucracy.

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Lemmy: Nerull: Ilmater is a LG diety, otherwise I would be more in line with him. So, you reject him because of his alignment? As Minsc is fond of saying, "Swords, not words!" Myself, I'd judge them by action. I don't know the agenda of Illmater's priests, but from the little the Illmaterites do in-game, they seem to help the downtrodden quite a deal more than other priests. Further, Illmater has small, quaint temples in the neediest part of town (Slums). If anything, Lathander's temple has more than enough wealth. (Just look at that ostentatious thing!) And, worse yet, it's in a rich part of town (clean, too) which I dare say is inaccessible to the truly downtrodden. As for other temples: There's a Temple of Oghma in the Docks District. IIRC, Oghma's Good, but I don't recall his ethics. His followers don't seem the "help the downtrodden" type, though. Pickpocket all evil characters (and ALL nobles) for everything they are worth. Donating the gold to a temple afterward would seem very "Robin Hood," if you trust them to put the gold to good use. -Lem

I know, I've always looked at Ilmater's alignment and thought, "What?" However, once you look at his credo (i.e. read up on him in PnP), you can see the lawful side. He actually has a strong lawful credo involving sacrifice and helping others endure suffering. In fact, he is one of a group of dieties called the Triad (with Torm and Tyr, both extremely lawful). He actually encourages people NOT to make waves, to take what is handed them in the way of suffering and just turn the other cheek. That's why I was always surprised to see him associated with Tyr and Torm, both martial dieties. However, one represents the authority of the law and the other represents duty and obedience to the law. Then Ilmater represents just taking whatever gets dished out to you, by the system and otherwise, and just do your best to "make lemonade from the lemons." That is what flies in the face of my guy's beliefs; why would I just sit back and accept my lot when I can instead free myself from the situation and not have to worry about it ever again. I would be more of an "activist" (a early Malcolm X) as opposed to the "pacifist" philosophy of Ilmater (Martin Luther King).

Oghma is one of the ones I missed. He is the True Neutral diety of knowledge and learning.