questions about fighter kits

[SixOfSpades]

Don't you have a rebuttal, Jim? *bump*

[Dundee Slaytern]

Try sending Jim a PM, SoS. It will be easier for him to respond to it. That was what we did when we exchanged opinions on debates. Don't forget to include the URL of this thread! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Jim]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: And that, I feel, is a mistake, because AC is where the Berserker shines, and where the Barbarian really eats it. I'm not arguing with your combat numbers, Jim, but the combat differences are actually less than you suggest. A Level 19 Warrior will indeed have a bitchin' THAC0, sure, but not so bitchin' that your AC becomes completely irrelevant. Apart from this, Barbarians get crap for armor. A Berserker has great armor shoved in his face, as soon as you take out Mencar Pebblecrusher. If you want something enchanted, stroll on over to the Guarded Compound. In Chapters 4-5 alone, there's the Doomplate+3, Gorgon Plate+4, and the Armor of the Hart+3....not to mention the Drow Full Plate+5. If you picked Barbarian, however.....well, you can wear the Mail of the Dead until you swing by Bodhi's pad and pick yourself up some Ashen Scales, or go kill a Shadow Dragon and wear that, or if you want to wait for the Main Plot, you can sacrifice a pair of Boots of Speed for the Jester's Chain that makes you look like a clown, or wait even longer, until Chapter 6, for the Crimson Chain or the Human Flesh. For another point, Plate and Full Plate both have way better AC Modifiers than Chain, Splint or Leather. (What does the Shadow Dragon Scale count as? Leather Armor with the AC modifiers of Splint Mail?) So if, instead of Axes, your hypothetical antagonists were wielding Warhammers, the outcome would be very different. For my final point, the Berserker's Rage further improves his AC, while the Barbarian's actually weakens it.

Oops, this post must have slipped me by! Apologies, would have replied sooner.

Yeah I see your point. If I assume that the wielded weapon is now a +3 axe, and each character is wearing decent armour (by level 19, powerful items are in reach anyway for an average party of 6 game, since you'll be in the latter stages of the game), and then take a look at the numbers (STR=18/70, DEX=17):

Assuming max HP per level
Berserker: (9*(10+4))+30 HP = 156
Barbarian: (9*(12+4))+30 HP = 174

Weapons:
Both dual wielding battleaxes +3.
Berserker (grandmastery): 7/2 attacks at 1D8+3+3+3 = 10-17 damage per hit ~ 35-60 damage per round
Barbarian: 7/2 attacks at 1D8+3+2+3 = 9-16 damage per hit ~ 32-56 damage per round

Armour:
Berserker: Armour of the Hart +3 (-4 vs slashing weapons), ring of earth control, helm of Balduran, cloak of the sewers, 17 DEX = AC -8 (-12 vs slashing weapons)
Barbarian: Crimson Chain +5 (-2 vs slashing weapons), ring of earth control, helm of Balduran, cloak of the sewers, 17 DEX = AC -6 (-8 vs slashing weapons)

Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-10 (-12 vs slashing weapons), damage per hit 1D8+3+3+3+2 = 12-19, damage per round = 42-67
Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-4(-6 vs slashing weapons), damage per hit 1D8+2+10+3= 16-23, damage per round = 56-81

The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -2 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 axe enchantment = -7 for the mainhand, and -5 for the off hand (assuming *** 2 weapon style)

The Barbarian will have 2 base, -1 prof, -4 STR (through rage), -3 axe enchantment = -6 for the mainhand, and -4 for the off hand (assuming *** 2 weapon style)

It is therefore clear that the Beserker will hit the Barbarian with 19 out of 20 sides of the to-hit dice (due to critical misses, so 95% chance of hitting), since his THAC0 of -7/-5 will punch through the barbarians effective slashing AC of -6 with ease.

The Barbarian on the other hand, has a much harder time, with a THAC0 of -6/-4 vs an effective slashing AC of -12. This means that the Barbarian would need a minimum roll of 6 to hit the Berserker (so overall odds of hitting are 15/20 = 75%) for the mainhand, and a roll of 8 or higher from the offhand (65% chance of hitting).

Sooooooo:
After 4 rounds, the Berserker has had 14 attacks. Assuming 95% of these connect, there have effectively been 13 attacks. Each one dealing an average of 15.5 damage, amounting to 13*15.5=202 damage after 4 rounds. The Barbarian will shrug off 20% of this, so has taken around 162 damage. The Barbarian has 30 HP remaining.

As for the Barbarians assault.......he too has made 14 attacks, with 10 being from the mainhand and 4 from the offhand. 75% from the mainhand attacks are successful (8) and 65% from the offhand are successful (3). We have therefore got 11 successful attacks, each one hitting for an average of 19.5 damage, so 11*19.5=214.5 damage. The Berserker will die long before the end of the 4th round. In fact, after the first successful 9 hits. The Barbarian will still have 52HP by this point.

So, to summarise, armour has indeed made a significant difference, but the sheer magnitude of the damage bonuses provided through barbarian rage, coupled with the barbarians awesome ability to widthstand massive physical punishment has allowed him to prevail in this instance, although it has been a much closer call that the bout where armour class was negated. This was also assuming awesome equipment. If I had based the numbers using no enchanted armour (full plate + splint mail), the barbarian would have won by an even larger margin (since his AC was redundant anyway!).

I've not checked these numbers by the way, so they might be a little out, but I'll stand by my decision that a Barbarian would win this particaular conflict. [img]smile.gif[/img] .

EDIT: Needed to make a few corrections

[ 02-19-2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Jim ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Jim: ... Weapons: Both dual wielding battleaxes +3. Berserker (grandmastery): 7/2 attacks at 1D8+3+3+3 = 10-17 damage per hit ~ 35-60 damage per round Barbarian: 7/2 attacks at 1D8+3+2+3 = 9-16 damage per hit ~ 32-56 damage per round ...

Hmmm... Since it seems to me that most of the people here play with the Grandmastery patch (and most of our calculations usually assume it is installed), it would only be fair to let the Berserker enjoy its full benefits -- namely, having 4 attacks.

[Rataxes]

A dual-wielding lvl 13+ Warrior with GM (assuming patch) would have 9/2 APR, wouldn't he? That is what my fighters always get with GM anyway.

[Jim]

Originally posted by Rataxes: A dual-wielding lvl 13+ Warrior with GM (assuming patch) would have 9/2 APR, wouldn't he? That is what my fighters always get with GM anyway.

Yes. Grandmastery provides +1.5 attacks in total, so combine with +0.5 from level 7, +0.5 from level 13, 1 base and +1 from dual wielding = 9 attacks per 2 rounds of combat.

Originally posted by Alson: Hmmm... Since it seems to me that most of the people here play with the Grandmastery patch (and most of our calculations usually assume it is installed), it would only be fair to let the Berserker enjoy its full benefits -- namely, having 4 attacks.

Yes, I see your point here (we certainly do take the GM patch into consideration when working this stuff out), but I was matching 2 warriors against each other in a standard SoA game.

If the Berserker can only beat the barbarian using unofficial patches, then one must ask if this is fair.

What I tend to do when using the GM patch is ignore the bonus proficiencies. The GM patch sets it to what it was like in BG1, but BG1 didn't have "2-weapon style", "2-Handed weapon style", "single weapon style", and "sword and shield style", so using the GM patch *and* these bonus proficiencies is somewhat tipping the balance in your favour. This is why I avoid dual wielding (or at least investing points into it) or using 2-handed weapons with these bonuses if I have the GM patch installed, since BG1 didn't offer these.

Taking exactly the same situation as above, but with GM patch:

Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-10 (-12 vs slashing weapons), damage per hit 1D8+5+3+3+2 = 14-21, damage per round = 63-95
Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-4(-6 vs slashing weapons), damage per hit 1D8+2+10+3= 16-23, damage per round = 56-81

The Berserker will also have a further +1 THAC0 bonus due the the GM patch, but this is irrelevant since we know the Berserker will always hit (bar on a roll of 1).

Each one of the Berskers attacks deals an average of 17.5 damage. The barbarian will shrug off 20% of each attack (takes 14 damage), so will there for need to be hit at least 14 times to reduce his 192HP to 0. During these 14 attacks, we should experience one critical miss, effectively making the Berserker to make 15 attacks. 15 attacks will take 3 rounds plus approx one third of another round. During this window, the Barbarian has made around 12 attacks. Assuming 9 main (75% success) and 3 off (65% success), we have made 9 successful assaults, each one dealing an average of 19.5 damage. 9*19.5=176 HP (therefore killing the Berserkers 171).

Wow, this would be touch and go depending on who could kill each other first, since they can both potentially kill each other in the same window of time. We have actually removed the Berserkers -1 speed factor bonus now that we are using the GM patch, so it simply comes down to chance now.......

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Jim: If the Berserker can only beat the barbarian using unofficial patches [the Grandmastery patch], then one must ask if this is fair.

To answer that, one must only ask itself if the patch itself is fair. In this case, the answer is yes. One may assume that any gamer inquisitive enough to give a damn about Barbarian vs. Berserker fights already has the full BaldurDash Fixpack installed.

Good job on the brawling stats, Jim! Now run the calculations again, this time where they both have the Sentinel Shield. (Or the Defender of Easthaven, for the Barbarian.)

[Jim]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: To answer that, one must only ask itself if the patch itself is fair. In this case, the answer is yes. One may assume that any gamer inquisitive enough to give a damn about Barbarian vs. Berserker fights already has the full BaldurDash Fixpack installed.

Fair point, although I still think the reason why grandmastery was toned down was to make room for bonus proficiencies allowing dual wielding or quicker/more powerful use of larger weapons. Personally, I do use the GM patch, although within my own guidelines. If I'm using a 2-Handed weapon, I ingnore the 2-handed weapon style bonuses, if I'm dual wielding, I place no points into two weapon style (a kensai is powerful enough to offset the -8 to hit penalty), and for missile weapons it's fine (there should have been a missile weapon style - maybe to overcome the negative attack rolls/enemy attack bonuses for close quarter combat, along with perhaps a critical hit modifier and a small boost to damage).

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: Good job on the brawling stats, Jim! Now run the calculations again, this time where they both have the Sentinel Shield. (Or the Defender of Easthaven, for the Barbarian.)

Thanks [img]smile.gif[/img] . Need to summarise this debate now though
The following encounters assume the following:
Both the Barbarian and the Berserker have the following key stats; 18/70 STR (+2 to hit, +3 to damage), 17 DEX (+3AC) and 18 CON (+4HP per level up to and including level 9).

I assume you want the Berserker to use the Sentinel and the Barbarian to use Easthaven as an offhand weapon? Rather than both using the Sentinel or both wielding Easthaven. (They should ideally have similar offensive capabilities to make the test fair), We'll go with Sentinel vs easthaven.

---

Sentinel vs Easthaven

Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-15 (-19 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit 1D8+3+3+5+2 = 14-21, damage per round = 49-74

Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-5(-7 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit = 1D8+3+10+2= 16-23 (mainhand) or 1D6+4+10+2=17-22 (offhand), damage per round = (2.5*(16->23)+1*(17->22))=(40->58 + 17->22) = 57-80.

Each one of the Berskers attacks deals an average of 17.5 damage. The barbarian will shrug off 20% of each attack (takes 14 damage), so will there for need to be hit at least 14 times to reduce his 192HP to 0. During these 14 attacks, we should experience one critical miss, effectively making the Berserker to make 15 attacks. 15 attacks will take 4 rounds plus approx one third of another round (15/3.5). During this window, the Barbarian has made around 15 attacks.

The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -3 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 axe enchantment = -8.

The Barbarian will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 axe enchantment = -6 (mainhand) and 2 base, +2 penalty, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 flail enchantment =-4 (offhand).

The Barbarian gets the +1 AC bonus from Easthaven, but the THAC0 of the Berserker will still punch through on a roll of 2 or higher. The Barbarian needs 13 or higher for the mainhand (40% chance), and 11 or higher from the offhand (50% chance - since full plate has no crushing modifier)

If the Berserker is hitting for 17.5 average per hit, the Barbarian will only take 60% of this (due to 40% resistancs from the DoE and barbarian abilities) = 11 damage per hit. 18 hits are therefore needed, taking a window of just over 5 rounds. Within 5 rounds, the barbarian has made 17.5 attacks. Main hand attacks are 12.5 @ 19.5 damage and offhand are 5 also @ 19.5 damage. 40% of 12.5 attacks is 5 attacks. 50% of 5 attacks is 3 attacks. The Barbarian has therefore made 8 successful attacks @ 19.5 damage, which is 156HP damage. This is not enough to slay the Berserker, *however*, the Berserker needs just over 5 rounds .... ergo the first strike of the 6th round will kill the Barbarian, but wait, the barbarian has left the Berserker will a lowly 15 HP by the end of the 5th round, and so too will kill the Berserker will the first strike of the 6th round. Again, this comes down to chance, and this round must therefore be declared a draw.

---

Both wielding axes +3 and Sentinel shields

Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-15 (-19 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit 1D8+3+3+5+2 = 14-21, damage per round = 49-74

Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-10(-12 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 5/2, damage per hit = 1D8+3+10+2= 16-23, damage per round = 40-58

The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -3 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 axe enchantment = -8.

The Barbarian will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 axe enchantment = -6.

The Berserker needs a roll of 4 or higher in order to hit the barbarians slashing AC of 12 (85% success). The Barbarian needs a minimum roll of 13 or higher (40% success) in order to hit th Berserkers slashing AC of -19.

The Berserker is dishing out 17.5 damage per hit, which is effectively 14 damage to the barbarian. 14 hits are therefore required to reduce the Barbarians's 192 HP to zero, (therefore 16 attack rolls taking the 15% chance to miss into account), taking 16/3.5= 4.6 rounds to kill the barbarian. Within this number of rounds, the Barbarian has made 11 attacks. 40% of these 11 attacks are successful, which is 5 hits @ 19.5 damage=98 HP. The Berserker has clearly owned the Barbarian in this situation.

---

Both wielding a 2-handed sword +3:

Berserker 'enrages'/barbarian 'barbarian rages':
Berserker: HP = 171, AC=-10 (-14 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 7/2, damage per hit 1D10+3+3+5+2 = 14-23 (average=18.5), damage per round = 49-81

Berbarian: HP = 192, AC=-4(-6 vs slashing weapons), number of attacks = 5/2, damage per hit = 1D10+3+10+2= 16-25 (average=20.5), damage per round = 40-63

The Berserker will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -3 proficiency, -2 STR, -2 enrage, -3 sword enchantment = -8.

The Barbarian will have a THAC0 of 2 base, -1 proficiency, -4 STR, -3 sword enchantment = -6.

The berserker will always hit bar on a roll of 1. The Barbarian needs a roll of 8 or higher = 65% chance of hitting. The Berserker is hitting for 18.5 average each hit (effectively 15), and so needs to score 192/15=13 hits to slay the Barbarian (call it 14 to negate critical misses). This will take 14/3.5=4 rounds. During this time, the Barbarian has countered with 10 assaults, each one dealing 20.5 damage. 65% of these hit the Berserker, so the barbarian has caused 7*20.5 damage = 144 damage. The Berserker has won again.

So, to summarise:

• a Barbarian vs a Berserker with a crappy AC will always win
• a Barbarian vs a Berserker without the aid of the grandmastery patch will always win
• a Barbarian vs a Berserker, both dual wielding slashing weapons, with the grandmastery patch is too close to call, a draw
• a Berserker with a powerful shield vs a Barbarian dual wielding an axe and the DoE is too close to call, a draw
• a Berserker vs a Barbarian, both wielding powerful shields will result in Barbarian stew
• a Berserker vs a Barbarian, both using 2-handed weapons is the 2nd course of Barbarian stew

[Dundee Slaytern]

The thing is... come ToB, the Barbarian gains Hardiness. So does the Berserker, but the Barbarian can achieve 80%. Without ToB, I suppose the Berserker has a better advantage, but ToB tips the balance into the Barbarian's favour, just like how ToB makes the Blade kick the Skald's sorry a** all over the place.