Dualclassing spellcasters

in general, i'd agree with dracon fighter about dual classing. any time i've done it mid-level (ie not 1 level of mage at the beginning, or switching bard to fighter at level 20+) i've been disappointed. but, it's a challenge for me to find a way to make it work, and my nature abhors an unmet challenge

regarding alchemy dual classing, you reminded me of another atlus 7 gem: the ninja-ranger dual (non-faerie). the concept would be to start as a ninja, using dual nunchuck and bow, concentrating on maxing out stealth and critical strike (and l&t if you're solo), including building up alchemy spells. then, when you switch to ranger, you use dual mace (mauler/DE) and bow.

the key benefits are that you would have the ninja's stealth ability to boost the ranger's AC, you'd have the ninja's critical strike ability added to your ranger's melee, and you'd get the ranger's critical ability for the bow and complete access to ranger armour (ie infinity helm!). not to mention they use the same spellbook (alchemy!)

now that could make an interesting solo, or member of a small (duo/trio) party.

[ScottG]

when you get down to two or fewer characters then things change quite a bit and so called "cheese" tactics aren't so cheasy.

I've tried the solo ninja ranger route (Mook), though most of my levels were as a Bard. (1st level as fighter then continue with a bard, then switch to ninja for training stealth and critical melee, then switching back to bard, and finally finishing off with a ranger.) One thing I found with this is that a ranger with lightning arrows and a doubleshot crossbow is more damaging and provides a higher % of criticals than most melee weapons provide. (particularly when factoring in additional ranged attacks b4 melee range.) On the otherhand they suck-up the vitality, so when switching to melee I always go with a pair of stilletos for the critical.

Its interesting that people comment on problems with weapon skills. Arnika alone allows two possible avenues to up your melee/ranged skills to 100 rather quickly, and general use alone should provide rather rapid advancement. So at least from my experiences, you really shouldn't factor in these types of skill increases negativly. (Note however: class plays a big role here, and not just with number of attacks/swings - trying to up a melee skill quickly in a strictly magic class does indeed take a while.)

[ProLifeGrrl]

Let's say I have two bishops and I'm focusing them on 2 spellbooks each. I am about to get each one of them maxed out as far as learning their spells. Could I switch them to Ninja (or one to Ninja and one to Monk) at that point? Assuming their spellbooks and all realm skills are at 100?

[dplax]

If they have already learnt all of their spells and skills are maxed, then the ponly negative effect you would get from changing classes would be losing uncrse and turn undead abilities, and the bonus the bishop gets to the artifacts skill. If I had that I would probably change to a fighting class, although I don't know exactly which one.

[Scatter]

I've made many Bishops into Fighter, Lord, Samurai and Ranger. Mostly in order to use the lovely regen items available only to them. If there's enough game left to 'reopen' whatever School you're in, your Magic will then continue developing--because you get Realm increases, your off-School spell ability increases a little also. Usually i make the switch from Bishop to Hybrid as soon as they get Portal; by then they've got the buffs up. You'll lose some Power Level (green disks will turn yellow) when you switch to a Hybrid (no loss as Fighter, but then no future gain) but you'll get them back when you 'regain' Magic, even in the off-school spells.

i recall some posts a while back where eew was testing the effects of damage spells relative to caster level, powercast level, and monster resistance and monster level. i think he mentioned that the relative level of caster to monster was a strong determinant of spell efficacy, more so than powercast relative to monster resistance.

the point being that, if you switch classes to a hybrid, your effective caster level will be lower due to being considered a non-spellcaster for those levels, which may impact the overall effectiveness of the caster offensively. more so, you would only continue to develop effective casting levels for those spells available in the book the hybrid has access to.

now i dont know if anyone's tested this stuff out, and if you're level 18+ there's not much game left to be falling behind that it might matter anyway. but it's worth consideration.

and if you were to see such effects, i'd like to hear about it! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Holywhippet]

Originally posted by DraconFighter: I've always wanted to try a Faerie Alchemist for 19 levels, then switch to Ninja. That way the S&W skill developed as an Alchemist would be useful for the Cane of Corpus.

Except an alchemist would spend most of their time casting spells rather than attacking with weapons.

The only classes I generally change are gadgeteer and bard - once they are able to use all the gadgets/instruments there is little need to keep them in their class. The only exception being that the gadgeteer can't use the omnigun and can't use the port-o-potty for some reason. I change them to fighter for the increases stamina regeneration - but even that is a bit of a bust as no combination of items will allow them to regenerate as much stamina as they use by activating a gadget/instrument.

[babar]

Originally posted by Holywhippet: The only exception being that the gadgeteer can't use the omnigun and can't use the port-o-potty for some reason.

Aw Rat(tkin)s ... can somebody confirm this?

I had a crazy idea to make a Ranger and give him one level as a Gadgeteer, using the Lightning Rod to bump up his Engr skill (because Omniguns require Engr skill to operate). Then I would grab Madras, take him to get a quest reward (for free exp) and give him the Ranger's Omnigun. When Madras levels up (might need the correct level, I forgot), he'll convert one or both (probably just one, but I forget) of the guns to the correct level for his experience. (I have tested this and it does work) You can then grab that updated gun (let Madras keep the other gun, he won't know the difference) and give it back to the Ranger.

Not sure if it's worth the trouble, but I really hate running out of ammo. This would work even better if you have a Gadgeteer in your party with the Ranger ... 2 guys with MK12s should be quite deadly. Of course if Holywhipet is right, then back to the drawing board....

[Scatter]

Only characters who are currently Gadgeteers can shoot the Omnigun. Just get yourself a Frontier Phaser! No need to reload them.

[Holywhippet]

Originally posted by Scatter: Only characters who are currently Gadgeteers can shoot the Omnigun. Just get yourself a Frontier Phaser! No need to reload them.

I can't say I've ever seen a Frontier Phaser in Wizardry 8. Is it a rare item or a hard to find one?