Planning ahead!

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

Holy long post Batman!

[EEWorzelle]

Yeah. I've been thinking that, too. Maybe it's time to back off for a while.

[Ziggurat]

EEW, your posts are always welcome. And they can be as long as you like. Hey, people don't have to read it if they don't want your insightful conmments! I enjoy your magic-heavy analysis. It's another strategy people should try if they want something new in this game.

[ 07-03-2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

I think the magic issue is also a lazines issue. I do get tired of entering the spells everytime. They should have made some hot keys or something. I think that's the main reason I go more for fighters. Just walk in there and get it done.

[ChaosTheorist]

I differ with ChaosTheorist on this one (for a pure hybrid). First look at what their primary use will be: ALWAYS physical combat (otherwise go with a pure magic caster or a magic caster dualed to a magic aligned hybrid later). The magical portion will be a distant second (particularly with damage spells).

I'm going to respectfully disagree with ScottG's disagreement (Hmm; does that make me--or him--or both--disagreeable?). At least if you want to have something interesting going on, a hybrid's magic abilities must be considered as equal partners to--or higher in precedence than--the physical-combat abilities.

Let's face it, people: melee-heavy parties in this game are EASY. Put a Fighter or two, a Rogue, maybe a Samurai or Lord or a melee-oriented Monk on the front line, build up their flogging skills and hit points, back them up with a Priest, Bishop, or even a Valkyrie or another Lord, and you can beat to death in short order pretty much anything you come across at normal game-finishing levels. Use a Bishop or someone else who can cast the Mage-book buffs and prots and it gets even easier.

But what's the point? Most of us have "been there, done that", either putting together our own or going with any of a number of "recommended" parties--almost all of which are really physical-combat parties with a bit of auxiliary and supporting magic. Even the Wiz8 "Sample Party" falls into this category: it might look "balanced" to the uninformed, but a closer look reveals that it has 3 physical-combat specialists, 1 healer, 1 miscellaneous caster, and only 1 true offensive-magic caster. It's "balanced" somewhere around the 70/30 point. The Priest and Bard do eventually get some meaningful damaging-magic firepower--about 80% of the way through the game.

So yes, you can build your hybrids with a focus exclusively on physical combat. Then you'll have to make tough decisions like "Hmm; should I beat them to death with my Fighter's sword, or beat them to death with my Samurai's swords, or beat them to death with my Monk's hands and feet, or beat them to death....".

As someone pointed out, the name of the game isn't "Melee8".

[Variol (Farseer) Elmwood]

OK, but, what are you really playing for? To kick some butt and win the game, right! It doesn't matter how you get it done, but why would you take a butch of wimps who are going to die all the time; doesn't sound like much fun to me. I took 3 Priests, 1 Bard, 1 Alchemist, 1 Mage. At lvl 9 I made everyone except the Bard a fighter. Now I have good protection, combat and healing spells and my party kicks some butt. I changed my Bard at lvl 12 to a fighter and things are working well. The instant kill spells are about the only good offensive spells later on anyway. I never take Monks or Ninja or Samurai. Tried them once and they just didn't impress me. I will definatly take them again but I think I'll start them in their pure mage class first and see if that's worth it.

[tuckyboy]

The Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are delayed gratification characters in a normal game. The critical hits start occurring regularly very late in the game, but as I've seen it pointed out previously, critical hits (when reasonably predictable) are just as useful as a Liz Fighter with a monster sword. IMHO, the critical hits are even better because they're just plain impressive.

I think that the unfortunate point in all of this is that the game is unbalanced. Fighters get powerful too quickly. Hybrids get powerful too late. You can divide the party among classes, but then some characters are pulling serious weight early while others are experience leeches.

2 cents.

[ChaosTheorist]

OK, but, what are you really playing for? To kick some butt and win the game, right!

Not even close, at least not after the first or maybe second time through.

It doesn't matter how you get it done,

Of course it does, at least if you want to enjoy it. After you've Ascended a couple of times, there are very few surprises left in the game, at least as far as where to go, what you'll have to fight to get there, and what you'll do when you get there. You know the fixed encounters, you have a pretty good idea of the random encounters, you have no control over the locations/actions of key actors, the contents of chests, or the required plot activities. So where does variety/interest/replayability come from? From modifying the things you *can* control: your party and your major side quests. And the side-quest options get used up pretty quickly too: align with the Umpani/T'Rang/both/neither? Become a Rapax Templar or not? Save Trynton from the Rattkin or not? Once you've excercised the "do" option, the "or not" path doesn't offer much.

Yes, it's fun to "bash skulls" a lot on your first or second trip; but bashing those same skulls the same way with the same characters and the same weapons a dozen times over is something I don't even want to think about.

I *know* I can walk through the game with the melee-heavy party mentioned earlier, and I *know* exactly how every step of the way will play out. I'm *pretty sure* I can make it to Ascension with an all-magic party, and I *think* I have a handle on how to do it; which one sounds more interesting to you?

[Ziggurat]

I agree, CT. The replay-ability is really from the party you choose. I take time to create each as different from previous ones as I can. Changing the appearances, names, voices, attitudes and class adds "spice" that flavors it. My party of 3 martial artists and a bishop is now lev 11 and those crits are starting to kick in. We are still relatively weak, but it is enjoyable to see them get better and better. And it is a challenge.

[ScottG]

ZN - (I see it a lot) always look at monster's resistance, I think that in most cases you will find a weakness of about 50% in one area (not that you'll always have a spell available for that one area though). If I remember correctly Reyjinn are suseptable to Divinity spells (which is why their acompanying posse usually includes a caster that imeadiatly whips up soul shield).

EEW - yup we were tracking (intending to say the same thing - apparently my style of writing can be obtuse).

CT - I believe I've stated as much b4 (about the ease/vs fun), everyone's perspective will of course differ on this. The melee8 ref. wasn't quite so trivial. It was intended to suggest that without a modicum of magic (especially spell protection), AND at a level for a particular point in the game, anyone will have severe difficulties - i.e. you need your wizardry to survive. It wasn't to suggest that in order to have fun (even as an experienced player) you need to focus on offensive magic.

Hybrids can be quite interesting without magic at all, i.e. insta-kill is a fascination all its own. The strictures of weapons types, armor, ect. are also quite fascinating. Furthermore it is a mistake to simply say that melee heavy parties are easy - this really depends on the way the characters and the party is developed (and which characters are utilized). A hybrid developed to top-out their insta-kill ability early, AS a primary melee'er, is generally NOT easy for about the first 40% of the game (even with several such characters, but with no meatshields). Perhaps this then is why you consider the first part of the game to be so difficult? It appears that you will sacrifice ease of play early on for ease of play latter on (thats a choice on your part - others may not wish to do this). Furthermore I would never call this game EASY, in fact this is "easily" the most difficult RPG experience I've ever had - it encourages "Power-Gaming". If you look at the hybrid character as developed by those who created the game - then of course physical combat for these hybrids takes precedence. If you look at the characters from a traditional standpoint - then of course physical combat takes precedence. If you want, (and find it more interesting to do so), a hybrid that is 50/50 then your "swimming upstream". My suggestion for a 50/50 is also "swimming up stream" (I just think it will get their faster and better with the right party - i.e the dualed hybrid).

Additionally, you seem to be confusing a balanced party with a balanced OFFENSIVE party (they are not the same thing).

Finally, have most been there done that (that are currently viewing this forum)? Please consider those that checkout the board but don't participate. I didn't start playing this game until about 4 months ago.

Oh well, just my two bits.