President Bush, the Ukraine, elections and American media focus.

[Yorick]

Please..... do not lock this topic.

I'm hoping we can discuss:

1.The 2000 USA election and it's similarity/difference to the currect Ukrainian election.
2.The higher standard placed on American democracy if it is held as a barometre of international democracy, and if it's leaders are going to publicly call into question another nations democratic processes.
3.The similarity of the Ukrainian seceding threats and prospect of resultant civil war to the US civil war and southern states secession.

as well as:

4.Why it seems so few Americans seem concerned with the Ukrainian situation. Is it the US media?
and
5.Is President Bush being hypocritical or not, in commenting in the Ukrainian election.

This is a separate topic to the other thread about the Ukrainian situation, as it involves American politics, so rather than take that thread offtopic, I would appreciate it if we can have the discussion in this thread.

Is that ok? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Please note the language used here is not intended to be "baiting" but rather discussion provoking. Please note no country is being bashed here.

I do apologise for starting the previous thread about the T.O.S. I would have pm'd my querey if I knew who to PM. I was asking a question, and was not seeking to undermine nor call into question anyone in particular. I was hoping to have a discussion on the above topics, and was merely bewildered as to why that topic was seemingly forbidden.

So, hopefully with that cleared up, we can discuss those five points. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Here is the link to the Presidents comments that initiated my thoughts about election processess.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...ush.friday.ap/

CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) -- President Bush warned Friday that the world "is watching very closely" as Ukraine tries to sort through charges of vote fraud following a disputed presidential election in the former Soviet republic. The United States and other Western nations contend that massive fraud marked the presidential runoff election in the Ukraine, and its highest court has ordered election officials not to publish the results until an appeal is heard next week. Bush, speaking to reporters covering his vacation visit here, said he hopes a clear and credible winner would emerge. "There's just a lot of allegations of vote fraud that placed the result of the election in doubt," he said as he entered a restaurant near his ranch. "The international community is watching very carefully," the president said. "People are paying very close attention to this and, hopefully, it will be resolved in a way that brings credit and confidence to the Ukrainian government."

Many thanks

Yorick [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-29-2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[dplax]

Originally posted by Yorick: 4.Why it seems so few Americans seem concerned with the Ukrainian situation. and

Ukraine does not have as much power in world politics as the USA. This is the reason for which most of the countries of the world followed the US elections extremely closely. The Ukrainian elections, as they are in a country in Eastern Europe which does not carry a lot of power on the international stage will be closely followed only by its neighbours and the EU, since Ukraine is a potential candidate for joining the EU. Irregularities were found in the Ukraine vote and now the story has been becoming bigger and bigger and has over the past few days made it onto the main story once or twice even on CNN, so I don't think Americans are that unconcerned about it. Most of them probably won't care too much as they are not going to be affected by it, whatever the outcome to it is.

[Yorick]

Thanks Dplax [img]smile.gif[/img]

[John D Harris]

1) Simularities between the 2000 USA election and the 2004 Ukrainian election,
both were elections with contested outcomes.
Differances: USA election was settled, there were protests but Zero talk of civil war, the American people dealt with the outcome, without resulting in violence, or open warfare. The jury is still out on the Ukraine.
2) There is no higher standard, and election is an election, baring evidence that there is fraud that caused the vote count to be wrong. No evidence of that in the 2000 USA presidental election. That election has been over for 4 years and not one shread of evidence or recount done by all the major news services, TV, Print, and Web have come up with any other conclusion than President Bush won Florida.
3)The US civil war was fought over State rights, the South fired the first shots starting the war, we get to be the ones that give the reason for starting the war. It was over States rights vs. Federal gov't. So there are no simularities with what is going on in Ukraine.
4) It's their country they can settle their own problems, as long as they are shouting and argueing they are not shooting.
5) No, as stated earlier there is zero evidence of the type of election fraud alleged in the Ukrainan election. Florida has what is called the sunshine laws. which means any citizen can go to the supervisor of elections and recount the votes. They have been recounted many times by news and reporters as well as political hacks from bothsides, in order to get something, and nothing has been found. President Bush Won Florida, in each and every single recount that was made.

[Timber Loftis]

John D. is correct -- at least on numbers 1, 4, and 5. The *was* evidence of vote fraud on the local level in FL, but such is always going to happen in isolated amounts. It only takes one bad official to cause trouble for a whole precinct. Ultimately, those did not change the course of the election.

As for what W said about the Ukraine, it seems like a general statement -- much more benign than those that were said about the US in 2000. Everything he said I agree with -- I hope they sort it out, and I hope they do so in a way that gives credibility to their government.

As for the US media, I think the Ukraine is getting front page coverage over here in most major rags. But, what can be done? We're waiting for the result. What, do you want a bunch of hand-wringing? We don't do that here. Want us to mobilize troops? I mean, what are you looking for?

See Similar, in fact nearly identical thread. Why start a new one, Yorick? Every thread is sacred, every thread is good -- every thread being needed, in your neighborhood??

[ 11-29-2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: John D. is correct -- at least on numbers 1, 4, and 5. The *was* evidence of vote fraud on the local level in FL, but such is always going to happen in isolated amounts. It only takes one bad official to cause trouble for a whole precinct. Ultimately, those did not change the course of the election. As for what W said about the Ukraine, it seems like a general statement -- much more benign than those that were said about the US in 2000. Everything he said I agree with -- I hope they sort it out, and I hope they do so in a way that gives credibility to their government. As for the US media, I think the Ukraine is getting front page coverage over here in most major rags. But, what can be done? We're waiting for the result. What, do you want a bunch of hand-wringing? We don't do that here. Want us to mobilize troops? I mean, what are you looking for?

I'm apealling the ruling on 2 & 3, on the grounds of lack of evidence. It's been 4 years years that are gone and can never come back. Where is there any evidence that comes close to showing that there was vote fraud that would have changed the outcome? There's no reason for anybody to remain quite about fraud, it's over and pasted we've moved on the the next election. What's done is done!

The ones that start it are the ones that start it! They are the ones that get to say why, Not the victor, remember the ole saying about how the victor gets to write the history. Their version of the history.

[Timber Loftis]

Not responding to [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] comments, JD -- but some Googling will quickly turn up a lot of hits for any of you who feel the need to revisit the 2000 election, including the recount/fraud issues. It's been beaten enough.

[Donut]

Originally posted by dplax: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: 4.Why it seems so few Americans seem concerned with the Ukrainian situation. and

Ukraine does not have as much power in world politics as the USA. [/QUOTE]Would I be right in saying that NO country has as much power in world politics as the USA?

Is that any reason not to discuss the political situation in any other country?

[dplax]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by dplax: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: 4.Why it seems so few Americans seem concerned with the Ukrainian situation. and

Ukraine does not have as much power in world politics as the USA. [/QUOTE]Would I be right in saying that NO country has as much power in world politics as the USA?

Is that any reason not to discuss the political situation in any other country? [/QUOTE]Yorick's question was why people are less concerned with the Ukraine situation. I replied to that. Discussion is totally different.

[Link]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by dplax: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: 4.Why it seems so few Americans seem concerned with the Ukrainian situation. and

Ukraine does not have as much power in world politics as the USA. [/QUOTE]Would I be right in saying that NO country has as much power in world politics as the USA?

Is that any reason not to discuss the political situation in any other country? [/QUOTE]The fact that there is a good reason to discuss a topic does not mean people will actually go about and discuss it.

On top of that, upper level management never really is interested in what happens in the lower regions of its office. The people thinking that Bush actually takes note of things our prime minister (Jan Peter Balkenende) says in meetings with him should definitely have a reality check. It's more formality than anything else.
On the other hand we are a bunch of simpletons in the end. We honour Holland's most low-life family as war heroes and actually buy a horrible Christmas song they make.