Party advice please

[Krull]

Hello all.

Could I have constructive criticism of this party please? Any race/clas changes needed? My two favourite classes are the Bard and Alchemist so definitely want these in. As I see it I will have four melee fighters and all spell books covered twice. Or am I over extending them and will suffer later?

Dwarf Lord
Human Samurai
Rawulf Monk
Hobbit Bard
Elf Bishop
Gnome Alchemist

Any advice gratefully received.

Thank you.

[Ziggurat]

Looks like a very good party to me.

[ScottG]

What I'd do (but not why, I'll be posting a guide for that in about a week), looking at your areas of interest.

(in order of initial recruitment, not placement formation.)

Female Felpurr alchemist dualed to bard at about 9th level. Max out speed while leveling up; dexterity and strength as well. Level up minimum attributes for bard by about level 9.

Female Mook alchemist dualed to ranger at about 9th level. Max out dexterity and senses while leveling up (strength and then speed afterwards). Level up minimum attributes for ranger by about level 9. This is a good character to have two of.

Elf or Farie Bishop.

Dwarf priest dualed to lord around 15th level (which allows for 6th level spells early on.) Max out vitality and strength (while leveling up) and bring up lord minimum attribute levels near time to dual (15th level).

Lizardman rouge swordsman and dagger fighter. Max Vitality, Strength, and Dexterity. Add two if you like this.

You will have to initially calculate your levels and PLAN OUT when you will increase each level so that you can dual at the proper time.

Note: their are numerous reasons for the list I've presented - an example of one is: your lizardman rouge will far surpass a samurai (in damage and critical kills) while dual wielding stilletos and latter Fang (sword) and stilleto while having a vastly superior armor class. Add. note: those attributes should be leveled up as mentioned here NOT as mentioned in the manual.

[EEWorzelle]

Krull, that sounds like an excellent party to me.

I'm afraid, after a year and a half of playing this game, that I cannot concur with any of ScotG's dual-classing advice, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. There are new things being learned about this game all the time.

Dual classing works very different in this game than Wizardry 7, and most players recommend it rarely if at all. The experience to go from level 1 to 2 in the new class is the same as if no class change. So if you change at level 9, from something else to say a Bard, the experience to go from Level 1 to 2 as a Bard will be the same as from Level 10 to 11 if you had started as a bard. All that class changing does is mix approximately the same total number of levels between two or more classes. That can be appropriate in some parties, but generally most players find a character with 10 Levels in two different classes is much weaker than 20 Levels in either one.

Most of the class changes I see recommended are two cases. One is single levels in another class (such as one level as a Mage for a Bishop, to get a realm-magic boost) or one level of something with Stealth combined with training Stealth to high levels (I never do such training but many players do). The other time is smaller parties, like 3 characters and no RPCs, where you will get a lot more levels by end of game to play with. Even then most players do not do too much class changing, because many skills and capabilities are level-dependent, based upon levels within that class.

[ 06-27-2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[ChaosTheorist]

Yeah, I'll certainly be interested in seeing the explanation for some of these. Some of them seem pretty straightforward, like the Alchemist->Ranger to get a spell-heavy Ranger. Well, except that Krull pretty clearly chose to leave ranged-attack capability out of this party. Others are much less clear: for example the Alchemist->Bard thing. The "obvious" logic is that since the Alchemist book has the fewest spells that are duplicated by Bard instruments (like, 1 exact match, though the Dulcimer of Mending effectively duplicates Heal Wounds, and the Renaissance Lute covers 4 Alchemist spells), this change gives the Bard better Alchemist-book coverage, producing a Bard that can cast things like Element Shield, Ring of Fire, and Fire Bomb. However, the game will be over before this AlcheBard is able to use the top 3 instruments (including the Renaissance Lute)--a pretty expensive trade-off.

[Nightowl2]

Yeah, that was yet another problem with dual-classing: the game is too short to make it worthwhile in many cases.

As it is, dualing is hardly worth the effort because you lose so much of the special class abilities when you change. The only time I did that was when I experimented with the 3-step bishop (going from priest to mage to bishop). Otherwise, I just kept everyone the same class.

Nightowl2

[Krull]

Thanks for all the replies.

I don't like dual classing much for the same reasons that EEWorzelle gave. By the way, EEW, can I say how much I enjoy your posts both here and on the VN Boards, lots of insightful advice and good reasoning.

I have toyed with class changing when the Bishop gets all her spells. Snag is, what to? I tend to go for maces with my Bishop so perhaps change her into a Fighter. Not enough time to get dual weapons up so also spend some points on Shield. Plus, of course, she can then wear an Infinty Helm. Snag is her strength will be low and so probably won't reach Power Strike. What do you think, leave her as a Bishop or class change to a Fighter?

I've never dual classed any of my bards, basically as I've never reached level 18 with any of them! Anyway, I've seen both arguments for and against dual classing Bards to Rogues (or Fighters).

Good point about the lack of ranged combat early on, I did worry about that but then they can use their magic instead once they have a few points under their belts.

The Lord is dual wielding maces. Can't see a Dwarf using a sword, and axes seem weak in this game, whereas I can see Dwarfs using Maces. There's the Mauler and Diamond Eyes to look forward to, this seems an awesome combination to me.

Samurai will get Bloodlust until Fang comes along and then perhaps give Bloodlust to the Bard until something better comes along. Would like a Light Sword but, like most of you I suspect, haven't seen one yet.

The Monk will use Martial Arts but will put some points into Staff in case I get the Zatochi? Bo.

I'm putting points into Staff for the Alchemist for the Staff of Doom eventually.

For the Bishop, I started her as a Bishop, gave her a level of Mage at level 2 for the extra spell points, and then back to Bishop for the rest of the game.

By the way, I picked a Rawulf for a monk as I read on the VN Boards that they could use the Ring of Beasts or whatever it's called which gives a boost to their Senses which seems logical to help with Psionics. Snag is, I've got a magic heavy party going as well, which includes a Rawulf Psionic, and I'm in the last third of the game (I think) and, to perpetuate the conspiracy theory, haven't got one yet. Needless to say, I have got it when I have no Felpurrs or Rawulfs in the party.

What do you think?

Thanks.

[ZarahNeander]

Originally posted by Krull: For the Bishop, I started her as a Bishop, gave her a level of Mage at level 2 for the extra spell points, and then back to Bishop for the rest of the game.

Interesting. Why not the other way around?. Start as a mage & switch at lvl 2 to a bishop? You get powercast 3 levels earlier (75 Int verus 65 Int). Granted you'll loose 2 HP, is that your reason? For me this is offset by the fact, that the mage only needs 1200 xp to get to lvl 2.

[ChaosTheorist]

I have toyed with class changing when the Bishop gets all her spells. Snag is, what to? I tend to go for maces with my Bishop so perhaps change her into a Fighter. Not enough time to get dual weapons up so also spend some points on Shield. Plus, of course, she can then wear an Infinty Helm. Snag is her strength will be low and so probably won't reach Power Strike. What do you think, leave her as a Bishop or class change to a Fighter?

Time limit again. In a full party, a Bishop won't usually be ready for a class change until about 6 levels past the end of the game. In a reduced party (and when planned from the start) changing a Bishop to a melee class can work. On the extreme "reduced party" end, my solo Bishop is now level 26, and is about ready to change to either a Lord or a Monk. But she was built with that in mind: current stats/skills include SPD=100, STR=96 (on the way to 100; had to spend a few levels' worth of points on VIT), Staff=73, Mace=94, Stealth=100, Shield=98, Locks=92. So a Lord with The Mauler+Shield or a Monk with the Zatoichi Bo will work fine.

I've never dual classed any of my bards, basically as I've never reached level 18 with any of them! Anyway, I've seen both arguments for and against dual classing Bards to Rogues (or Fighters).

Instead of a class change, just build a Bard that can fight: see EEWorzelle's excellent analysis at

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...=003175#000013

Good point about the lack of ranged combat early on, I did worry about that but then they can use their magic instead once they have a few points under their belts.

That wasn't criticism of the lack; just an observation on how you chose to structure the party. Choosing to forego physical ranged attacks and use magic for non-melee opponents is a perfectly legitimate option.

By the way, I picked a Rawulf for a monk as I read on the VN Boards that they could use the Ring of Beasts or whatever it's called which gives a boost to their Senses which seems logical to help with Psionics. Snag is, I've got a magic heavy party going as well, which includes a Rawulf Psionic, and I'm in the last third of the game (I think) and, to perpetuate the conspiracy theory, haven't got one yet. Needless to say, I have got it when I have no Felpurrs or Rawulfs in the party.

Same here; I've seen the Ring of Beasts two or three times in 15+ games played to various stages (rarely to Ascension), and of course none of those times were when anyone in the party could actually use the thing. There are a few "guaranteed" Race/Class combos to use based on equipment (Mook Ranger, Faerie Ninja), but not many.

[Wereboar]

I have toyed with class changing when the Bishop gets all her spells.

Thats around level 25-26, if you learn level 1-5 spells only from books. Aside from this, the ability to overcome enemy resitances is dependent on you caster level vs monster level, so even in a small party, its better to stay bishop.

I have a fighter/bishop party, where i intended to switch (after having all the pells skills at 100). I decided its better not to change. And with 8 rechargable mana stones in his inventory, and the might to magic spell, there's no need for the infinity helmet.

The Monk will use Martial Arts but will put some points into Staff in case I get the Zatochi? Bo.

The Zatoichi Bi is a fix item (Rapax castle)

I'm putting points into Staff for the Alchemist for the Staff of Doom eventually.

No need to put points into weapon skills with pure casters. At least not until you have all realm skills at 75. Raising earth, fire and water is much better IMO.