IWD2 - Help...I'M GETTING MY ARSE KICKED!! (spoiler)

[Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV]

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Please excuse the "French" within my thread title, but I'm having a whole HEEP of trouble in the "ambush fight" at the Fort, it's the fight at the end (I'm guessing it's the end) of the prologue.

I've got a level 2 Human/fighter who has 28 hp, 18 ac, longsword, tower shield, splint mail, and a secondary weapon of a heavy crossbow. Then I have a level 2 dual-wielding Drow/ranger with 26 hp, 17 ac, two short swords, studded leather, and a secondary weapon of a light crossbow. Then I have a level 2 Human/cleric with 18 hp, 17 ac, a mace, a small shield, studded leather, four cl-spell slots with: one Command, two Heal Light Wounds, one Mnstr Sum, and then I have one domain spell of Sunscorch. Next, I have a Lightfoot Halfling/rogue with 18 hp, 17 ac, short sword, small shield, a second weapon of a heavy crossbow, leather armor, and the Feat, Rapid Shot. Then I've got a level 2 Drow/evoker who has 14 hp, 17 ac, a sling, Fhaen's Robe of Rags, 5 spell slots consisting of: 2 Ice Daggers, and 3 sleep spells. And last but not least, a level 1 Deep Gnome/conjurer with 7 hp, 19 ac, a sling, and 3 spell slots filled with Mnstr Sum.

Now the reason I'm having so much trouble in this battle is because it consists of three (I think it's three) groups of Goblin hordes (among other creatures) who simply tear down my two main fighters. I can beat the first two groups of monsters without getting any party members killed through using my spells and and flaming oils. However, when that third horde of monsters arrive, my party is quite weakened and simply can't finish the job. Now I realize that you can run back into the commander's building and receive some healing from the Priest in there, but you have to (I think) take the whole party with you. And there is no way of leaving the army fort and sleeping to rejuvinate your spell casters. One of my tactics was to cast a sleep spell into the center of the goblin/wolf horde, and that seems to work fairly well but it doesn't last for long. Another problem are those DAMN goblin archers, they seem to really do some heavy (4-8 hp) damage to my "tanks".
What I would like to do is station my party inside the "commander's building" and send out my two best fighters into the battle. When they start to become weakoned, I'll have them run back into the building to get all healed up by the "army priest". But I don't think I am allowed to do this. So that is why I am asking for your help in puting together an effective strategy for killing these annoying little (but tough) Gobblins. Oh wait, I almost forgot to mention, I set the difficulty level to "Hard", which does double damage. This could probably be another reason why I'm having one Hell of a time.
Thanks for your suggestions and help. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[DraconisRex]

"Hard," huh? So what's the complaint then? You are not playing the old, unbalanced 2E rules enemies. Nor is IWD:II "dumbed down" like NWN at the regular setting. At the regular setting, you are facing the game exactly as balanced by the new, and far superior, 3E rules. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If you want advice to get past this battle without changing everything you've done to your party, it is to change the setting BACK to regular. Because you think those little goblin parties are a problem, just wait until you get to chapter 1... This game isn't a cakewalk. BG, BG:II, IWD, NWN are all cakewalks at the regular setting.

If you insist on staying at hard. You need to seriously change your tactics because you're not going to make it.

1. Approach with caution. I could bet the farm that you're just "rushing" right up there.

2. Arrange your party in a defensive position near melee NPCs. Keep your missile using characters (your mages) at least 15' (5M) behind any melee skirmishers.

3. Scout ahead with your ranger and/or rogue. Shoot a couple of goblins if they are disbursed, and fall back after initial contact and draw the enemy to the PCs & friendly NPCs.
3A. If the goblins are clumped, have your rogue sneak and get them with a flaming oil attack, then retreat back to the main camp.

4. Sleep spells are effective on goblins - cast that spell first and center the spell on the goblin party leader. The soldiers tend to stay around the leader and hopefully you'll get a few.

5. Pause at least at every other melee around. Two missile firers for each goblin missile soldier, then footsoldier. Concentrate your fire! Rush them with your ranger and rogue, if necessary. Keep your tank against the leader.

Some mistakes I can see you have made:

A. You've totally messed up your halfling rogue's rate of fire and to-hit chances due to poor weapon selection - rapid shot does NOT apply to crossbows (just like it says in the feat description - or didn't you read it). The halfling to-hit with ranged weapon bonus applies to THROWN weapons, just like it says...

B. Your lightly armoured ranger is being mis-used. His AC bonus only applies to attackers in front. Those that flank him or are behind him negate his AC bonus for dexterity. Rangers are STAND OFF missile fighters in situations where there are hordes of nearly equal enemies. And like it or not, in many respects those goblins are nearly equal.

Their (rangers) light armour and loss of dexterity bonuses in heavy fighting makes them far more vulnerable than most people realize. You think he has an AC of 17. In reality, it's 12 or 13 in a crowd. Unless, of course, you're playing NWN where item selection is fudged to make them viable as tanks.

C. Get those #&@^$@!!! heavy crossbows to the mages!!! They are wasted where you have them and the mages are not going to do nearly as much spell casting as they are missile firing at this stage of the game. You're seriously wasting thier offensive capabilities. One of the sling & stones (thrown weapon) goes to the halfling.

D. You have only one tank. Not two tanks. To tank a ranger AND dual weild, you need to take the ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting feats. Otherwise a ranger is not a tank. Despite any thoughts of Drizzit Do'Urden floating through your head...

There are more things you can do. Extrapolate.

[Lord of Alcohol]

A little hard on the guy werent you Draconis? All he wanted was help. Sir Henreich its a fairly tough battle. As Draconis says take out the leaders first. Use every spell and every item you have. Use your healing spells and potions before rushing to the next battle. Missile firing characters should concentrate on the enemy archers. Dont get frustrated and have fun! [img]smile.gif[/img] As Draconis said this games a LOT harder than NWN so be ready!

[DraconisRex]

Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol: A little hard on the guy werent you Draconis?

If that was hard or offensive, I do appologize, Sir Hentrich. It was not my intent to be "hard" or "insulting." Rather, to advise you to some problems you were making for yourself by applying old "tried & true" techniques to a deceptively similiar sitution. As I am blunt and straight forward (especially before I've had my coffee), these errors in communication style creap up.

Also, the post wasn't entirely directed to you. Being the professorial type (i.e. pendantic) I was trying and to educate other readers to the changes in the rules, and the errors of not adapting to them, as well.

Frankly, the gaming solutions used for the prior releases of the infinity, or the current release of the aurora, engines do not work as they did in the past. What we all knew to be "the solution" is, at times, as obsolete as a Cavalry Charge into a Machinge Gun Emplacement.

Crossbow using mages. Spell effects normalized. More "specialty mage" restrictions. Bonuses stack differently, or not at all, in some cases. New rules for flanking and rear attacks negated old fighting techniques. Cover and concealment now play a big part of combat. Other gross and subtle changes in combat mechanics have occured. Skills and feats, and the way you choose to select and/or apply them make each charcter far more different than similar, even within the same base class.

This is no longer the "select class and level up the "to hit" tables" RPG. Applying the old rules gets you dead.

[DraconisRex]

Oh, and let me be clear. I got my butt kicked the first time I went through that battle sequence at "regular." Lost one fighter and one cleric. One being an drow, and it costs a lot more to resurrection a drow than to raise-dead a human.

I saved and went back to a prior save game and walked though it multiple times trying as many different techniques as I could think of.

Oh, and when you get to Chapter 1, you better start watching out for enemy spell casters. They are tough, tough, tough. They buff and heal their support troops. Archers stay back and fill you full of arrows. Enemies that don't see you will still react to the "sounds" of battle. And the enemies have a lot of nasty, nasty tricks, too.

You will earn every inch of ground you take by paying in blood. And if you don't use your party to its fullest capablilities, and don't keep it balanced, you'll pay with a lot more blood than you should.

[Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV]

Posted By: DraconisRex 1. Approach with caution. I could bet the farm that you're just "rushing" right up there.

Nope. The first thing that I do when I see ANY enemy is to make atleast one ranged attack, then I have my fighter and ranger rush up on them, while the rest of my clowns continue firing bolts and bullets from a far.

3A. If the goblins are clumped, have your rogue sneak and get them with a flaming oil attack, then retreat back to the main camp. 4. Sleep spells are effective on goblins - cast that spell first and center the spell on the goblin party leader. The soldiers tend to stay around the leader and hopefully you'll get a few. 5. Pause at least at every other melee around. Two missile firers for each goblin missile soldier, then footsoldier. Concentrate your fire! Rush them with your ranger and rogue, if necessary. Keep your tank against the leader.

I have about 6 flaming oils and I am trying to preserve as many as I can for the last of the baddies. Nevertheless, when the opportunity presents itself, I do not hesitate to throw a flaming oil in a concentrated group of monsters. When casting a sleep spell I try to project where the horde is heading and center it there. This spell seems to effect about 75% of Goblins and Wolves that it comes in contact with.
I pause more often than is probably necessary, I'm the type of person who needs total control.

A. You've totally messed up your halfling rogue's rate of fire and to-hit chances due to poor weapon selection - rapid shot does NOT apply to crossbows (just like it says in the feat description - or didn't you read it). The halfling to-hit with ranged weapon bonus applies to THROWN weapons, just like it says...

My rogue's attack roll seemed to be higher (IIRC) with a crossbow than it did with a regular bow. As for the Rapid Shot, I assumed that this particular feat would apply to all ranged weapons, my mistake. I spent roughly 3 hours of pondering, praying, and soul-searching during the creation process of my party. Some of the decisions that I made were based, no doubt, on admiration of certain clases such as: Drow or Deep Gnome, and YES, you have guessed it, even the hero Drizzt Do'Urden. SUE ME!

B. Your lightly armoured ranger is being mis-used. His AC bonus only applies to attackers in front. Those that flank him or are behind him negate his AC bonus for dexterity. Rangers are STAND OFF missile fighters in situations where there are hordes of nearly equal enemies. And like it or not, in many respects those goblins are nearly equal. Their (rangers) light armour and loss of dexterity bonuses in heavy fighting makes them far more vulnerable than most people realize. You think he has an AC of 17. In reality, it's 12 or 13 in a crowd. Unless, of course, you're playing NWN where item selection is fudged to make them viable as tanks.

I am not particularly familiar with all of the new 3rd edition rules, admittedly I have much studying and learning to do. I also appreciate you bringing to my attention the vulnerability of my lightly armored Ranger while he is in melee combat. However, it seems rather odd I must add, that he is always the last one standing among my party, and is no less, right in the thick of the battle. But then again, I could just be getting lucky.

C. Get those #&@^$@!!! heavy crossbows to the mages!!! They are wasted where you have them and the mages are not going to do nearly as much spell casting as they are missile firing at this stage of the game. You're seriously wasting thier offensive capabilities. One of the sling & stones (thrown weapon) goes to the halfling. D. You have only one tank. Not two tanks. To tank a ranger AND dual weild, you need to take the ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting feats. Otherwise a ranger is not a tank. Despite any thoughts of Drizzit Do'Urden floating through your head...

I will try your suggestion of giving the crossbows to my mages. I figured that they would take an enormous penalty for not being proficient in that specific weapon. My mistake.
And yes I do realize that in the traditional context, a Ranger is not a tank, however in comparison to my other 4 lackeys, HE IS! That is why I labeled him as such. Oh, and mind you, my Ranger (or Drizzt as you like to call him) does have the feats: Ambidexterity and Two-weapon Fighting.

Enemies that don't see you will still react to the "sounds" of battle. And the enemies have a lot of nasty, nasty tricks, too. You will earn every inch of ground you take by paying in blood. And if you don't use your party to its fullest capablilities, and don't keep it balanced, you'll pay with a lot more blood than you should.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as if you are making a supposition that I do not like IWD2 or the new 3rd edition rules for that matter. I for one, actually think that this highly improved AI is a wonderful change. It will make each and every victory... that much sweeter.
The primary reason for my initial posting was to see if anyone knew of any "tricks" or quick ways to beat these hordes of goblins, that was all.
Oh and by the way DraconisRex, no hard feelings.

[Lord of Alcohol]

LOL well said. So did you get past them? Also he is right about the spellcasters later on. Neutralise them fast [img]smile.gif[/img]

[john]

God I'm glad I'm not alone thinking this game is much harder than the last few I've played!!I'm realy learning some of the real nicities of battle and group tactics here today ,Thanks Guys!!Theres' lots more of the same ahead then throw in a few good puzzles asa well!!Great forum!!

[Azred]

I have had great success thus far (into chapter 1) by scouting ahead with a thief in hiding, then making my enemies come to me. Thus, they get to walk into my web or grease spells, then hit them with sleep and hold person, if applicable. Actually, I've noticed with IWD2 that if I rush the enemies then I die--not an outcome that I would recommend.

Anyway, for this particular three-part battle focus all firepower on the main goblin leaders (spells, missile weapons, and melee). Mop up the flunkies later. If you have to, send one person ahead to draw the attention of the goblins, and then lure them into your waiting party. Run around buildings if you have to--use terrain and surroundings to your advantage. [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[Mitro Jellywadder]

I definitely agree with using a thief or ranger to sneak around before your party. I'm in Chapter 3 now, and I've used my thief scouting and sneak attacking the whole time. Especially love to use it in tight places, run around a corner and get out of view, go back into the shadows and hit them again. You can take down a lot of hit points in just a couple of hits, then your tanks can mop up the rest. Improved evasion and fireballs are a deadly combination to be able to use. You can send your thief to sneak attack the leader, and launch a couple of fireballs at his feet.

Another helpful thing for me, is to switch my auto-pause option to "end of round", when the tide of a battle turns against me. It helps save a little bit of damage, and you can actually focus your attacks a little bit better.

ps, the hide in shadows works wonders to keep people pinned in a room while your mages hurl spell after spell into the room.