HLA's, some ideas

[Devv]

HLA'S are a bit much. Some things I would have done to make them more balanced would be these.

Don't include use any item. It makes rogues too powerful and also makes it very easy to make some insanely powerful dual and multi classes.

Don't include the thief traps. Seriously, who would play a bounty hunter with those HLA traps available to all thieves? They do so much damage too.

Make the assasination HLA available to assasins only. Assasins are out classed by fighter/thives in most aspects. The poison is nice, but the X 7 backstab isn't that amazing considering you struggle to hit a lot of things in full plate with an assasins terrible thaco.

Don't include dragons breath and comet. Spells that just about annihilate every enemy in the game in 1 shot no matter who they are, (excluding perhaps 2 I can think of). You have little reason for any other level 9 spells with these two. Instead of those 2 HLA's it would be nice to see some more extra spell memorizations, like another 1 for each level.

I would remove many of the thief HLA's, so they should be replaced by something. Perhaps an instant invisibility limited to 1 a day wether there are enemies near or not. Another nice one could be a timed thaco boost castable 3 times a day or something. They would still die faster than tanks, but at least they could do some damage first. An extra proficiency slot in a weapon of thier choice to bring it up to 2. Some much more balanced HLA's imo.

Intrested to hear other peoples opinions on this stuff [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Xen]

Well I personally think that WW and GWW should only get Kensai(from RPing wiew) becuase they strike with speed and precision.


Rangers should get something like"Make cure of [insert name of a plant here]" like Aragorn in LotR instead of tracking. Aragorn helped Frodo with his knowledge when he was stabbed by Morgul blade.


Mages/Sorcerers:they HLA`s are good becuase they are known to bring Meteors from the sky and they bring raining death and destruction anywhere they go...


Thieves:well traps are good.


Bersekers/Barbarians should be immune to every type of damge for 60 seconds.(Becuase they are animalistic and like in a real life when you have an adrenalin rush you don`t feel anything)

[Elramir]

First of all some Comments about Devv's and Xen's Suggestions:

- Use any item should be thrown out of BG like Devv said. It is much too powerfull and I'm wondering all the time, why Bioware didn't realise this fact

- In my opinion the thief traps should be only available to the Bounty Hunter. Or maybe he could be the only Thief Kit which can choose every trap more than once, while all other thiefs can get only one of each HLA-trap. As well there could be a Upgrade for the Bounty Hunter's own traps, in form of another HLA. Also the HLA-traps could be a bit weaker. What about making the Spike Trap (is that the English name for it?) do just 4d6 damage by the spikes but poisen the victim for about three/four rounds and do 18 damage per round?

- I also agree with Devv to make the Assasination HLA a "assasin-only" Ability.

- I would let the Dragons Breath and Comet still in the game but make them a lot weaker. The Dragons Breath's damage could be only the half of it's current value and it would be still the most powerful spell a mage could use. So I think it's casting time should be much longer and not be affected by items as the Robe of Vecna. Same goes for the Comet.

- His idea of a Thief Ability, which reduces the thaco for a few points is great. But the instant invisibility is a bit much. And from the Roleplaying point of view it doesn't make any sense: how could someone who is standing right in front of you just disapear and hide himself in shadows though it might be a sunny day and you are outdoor?

- I don't agree with Xen, that WW and GWW should be only available to Kensais because the Kensai is very strong on his own. I would suggest that these two HLAs should be available to nobody. They are way too strong and make the game too easy. I only could imagine to let only the normal WW in, but make the penalties on the thaco harder. It would be still a great ability.

- Xen's idea of the some sort of Healing skill of the Ranger is good. And it makes pretty much sense. The Ranger is traveling most of his life through the wilderness and therefor he should know to heal himself/others with some plants.

- Well about the next two points of Xen's Post I have already said something.

- Such a ability for Barbarians and Berserkers would be IMO a bit overpowered. Bu the idea in general is good. But the Barbarian should be damaged in this time. But as you said, he is in a adrenalin rush, and therefor don't feel anything. That means that he is hurt, poisened and maybe even so much damaged that he is obviously death, but in this short period of tome it doesn't matter to him. If the time is over, all damage he has taken during is rampage is be taken at once + 15 damage(for balancing that he ist immune for 60 seconds). So there is a high chance that he will die after the 60 seconds.


Now some own ideas about HLAs:

I would like a HLA for (nearly) every single Kit. For example: A Priest of Talos could get an awesome offensive Lightning spell while a Prist of Lathander maybe receive a Healing spell. A Undead Hunter could learn some sort of the Sunray spell and a Shapeshifter could shift to a ultimate Shape for about 30 seconds once a day.

[ 09-11-2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Elramir ]

[teardropmina]

maybe off topic a bit, but I just want to say something about the "overpowered" HLAs thing.

imo, they should just stay there for the less experienced and less tactiful gamers, or say, "general/average" gamers. BG series is very popular and many non-hardcore rpg/PnP gamers play it as well. Those HLAs can give less experienced and general gamers a chance to finish the game without too much trouble. When you're good, experienced, or spend tons of time exploiting the possibility of powergaming, I think as good as all you guys are, you can beat the game without overpowered HLAs. If you feel those HLAs are overpowered and make the game too easy, you can always play the game without using them. I consider myself less experienced and not quite far from average/general gamers "skill wise" (I'm die-hard RPG, especially BG fan), I rarely, if ever, use dragon breath, but I rely on GWW and Comet quite often; I think you guys can easily play the game without using HLAs at all. I still remember my first time through ToB, almost throw away the game after several failed attempts to go through the final battle, even with all those fancy HLAs...I thought I could never finish the game at that time. Now I look back, none of the standard ToB battles are too tough, but it's after quite a few reruns.

I think the gamemakers did have the general/average gamers in mind when they designed the game. I reckon not many average gamers will revisit BG series and explore the possibility of powergaming after they beat the game (unless they got hook by the game itself). I think this is also the reason that in standard SoA, the tougher battles (Kangaxx, Twisted Rune and such) are purely optional, and major, required battles are relatively easy, and too easy for experienced gamers (Bodhi finale and the final fight in hell) -- they're easy enough for general/average gamers to finish the game. ToB raise the battle difficulty, but adds HLAs = when less experienced gamers like SoA and want more, they can play ToB, and with HLAs, they can still finish the game with relative ease.

at any rate...all your guys' ideas might eventually become a part of mods (or a ToB modifified HLAs mod) in the future. One of the most important reasons why people make mods is because experieced and powergamers want more challenges, isn't it?

[ 09-11-2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: teardropmina ]

[Devv]

Some great points noted from all of you [img]smile.gif[/img] First of all i'll reply to teardrop. You are spot on when you say that the HLA's are good for helping the less hardcore gamers. Some HLA's like use any item however I think are a bit too cheap even for the most casual of gamer. They don't just make the game easier, but they ruin other classes and destroy too much balance. I think that mods like the ascension and tactics are the only way to deal with these overpowered HLA's however, it is hard to say no to them. Tell me if you can make a thief and take them to level 40 without getting use any item heh [img]smile.gif[/img] I don't think mods that removed the HLA's would be very popular since people like power too much. Some of them seem to not have been thought out enough before the game release in my opinion, but they're here, and here to stay.

Welcome to Ironworks Elramir [img]smile.gif[/img] Some great comments (I love it when somebody starts off by agreeing with me!) I like your idea on dragons breath. It is a nice HLA idea and would be a shame to use it when all it needs is a mini nerf in damage. Glad you liked the thaco idea. I picture an assasin using it before backstabs, or a thief using it when his party starts to die in a fight as a do or die kind of tactic...since a thief is after all still wearing leather armour. The instant invisibility could be a touch of near magic the thief has gained from all his life time of practising to hide in the shadows, this is at least a decent way to enter it in a role play kind of way. I see it as much more role play orientated than a thief reading power word kill from a scroll and setting up a time stop spell in a trap lol

As for Xen's points, I like the improved bezerk mode lots. A nice way to do it though would be to kill the zerker/barbarian or perhaps take them down to 1 hp after the zerk mode ends. This means they have gone truley mad ignoring all damage for 30 seconds or whatever, dished out supreme damage but nearly killed themself in the effort. Their wounds would have to catch up with them when the adrenaline dies down

The ranger heal is nice, but they get priest spells anyway. I don't see them getting a lay on hands ability as being that great an idea. Aragorn did it in lord of the rings because he is a king of men from the Numenorian race. In the 3rd book they tell you some stuff about the hands of the king being skilled in healing. He doesn't have those skills because he is a ranger [img]smile.gif[/img] If anything, he is a Paladin with a Ranger appearance in my view. Perhaps giving them slightly different named priest spells with the same effect might improve their role play side of things.

No comments on the extra proficiency HLA though. I really liked that idea too [img]smile.gif[/img] An extra +1 in hit and damage is gained from going to 2 slots from one so it is a decent HLA but not too overpowering. After all why shouldn't your assasin who only uses a short sword all his career not get more than just "proficient" with his weapon. He is a master of killing right?

[Xen]

Sure but Aragorn has Elven blood(IIRC) and Elves are Rangers/Archers.

[Elramir]

Originally posted by Devv: Welcome to Ironworks Elramir [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thank you Devv!

Originally posted by Devv: An extra +1 in hit and damage is gained from going to 2 slots from one so it is a decent HLA but not too overpowering. After all why shouldn't your assasin who only uses a short sword all his career not get more than just "proficient" with his weapon. He is a master of killing right?

That is absolutely right. But Paladins, Barbarians and Rangers should get as well such a ability because they are still more a Fighter than a Thief (Assasin) and it wouldn't make sense that they had as much proficiencies spend in, for example, Katanas than a ranger.

Originally posted by Xen: Sure but Aragorn has Elven blood(IIRC) and Elves are Rangers/Archers.

AFAIK that's not right. Both, his father Arathorn and his mother Gilraen, were Northern Dúnedain. That means that Aragorn has no elven blood.

[Lord]

I most definately agree with removing the thief's trap HLAs and putting something in their place. Just imagine what a thief with Use Any Item could do with a time trap. You put a time trap, you use the HLA Assassination, and then go backstab the crap out of everything. Now that is just waaaay too overpowered. I'd like to see something like a dispel magic trap and a Glyph of Warding trap (an attempt to keep the monsters away from you).

[Devv]

Originally posted by Xen: Sure but Aragorn has Elven blood(IIRC) and Elves are Rangers/Archers.

Elramir already said it, but I second it...Aragorn is all human but he is dunedain and all those lot were the remenants of the Numenorians. They had kind of Elvish powers, were stronger and smarter than normal humans and lived for much longer, but they were still mortal [img]smile.gif[/img] (man do I sound like a nerd??)

Welcome to the topic Lord, glad to see another who agrees with me on the traps

As far as the proficiency slots go, I feel Paladins and Rangers all deserve 3 slots (except for archers). It doesn't improve you that much, compared to having 2, but 2 just seems too low when a fighter gets 5. I think an assasin and swashbuckler should get the 2 proficiency HLA but not normal thieves or bounty hunters. Barbarians I feel should get 2 slots but not 3, they are meant to be brutes, but saying they don't learn any tricks with their weapon they constantly use is silly.

It would be nice to see the bounty hunters allowed 1 each of those HLA traps but no other thieves. It would give people a reason to play bounty hunters over the other choices and mean that if you wanted to role play one, you wouldn't be playing a gimp.

[teardropmina]

Originally posted by Lord: Just imagine what a thief with Use Any Item could do with a time trap. You put a time trap, you use the HLA Assassination, and then go backstab the crap out of everything. Now that is just waaaay too overpowered.

well, that's something (different ways but same result) a sorcerer (or even a mage) can do without HLAs. if it's "balance" we're talking about, why thief cannot be as powerful as sorcerer? all sorts of HLAs that are not for sorcerers seem to be very justfiable when there's a class called "sorcerer" -- making other classes closer to sorcerers powergaming wise. No matter how many GWWs fighters gain, they're probably still less powerful and destructive than high level sorcerers without any HLA.