F/M/C and Mage HLA's

[Rataxes]

I noticed that F/M/C's don't get Mage HLA's besides the extra spells. I know why (can't normally reach 9th spell level), but I was wondering if this is purely because of that limitation, or for balance issues? The reason I'm asking is because none of the existing XP-Cap Removers seems to make Mage HLA's available to tripleclasses, and I thought maybe there's a reason for this. You see, I'm going to be playing with the Lvl 50 XP Cap mod in a solo No-reloads game with the full array of Weimer mods on Insane (probably doomed to fail, I know) and was thinking about using SK to give myself these HLA's (while removing an equal amount of existing HLA's of course). What do you think about this? You consider it cheating? Or simply a way to give myself "what should rightfully be mine anyway"? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Alson]

Call me purist... but i find that to be cheating.

On a side note... the F/M/C is not such a good choice for a Solo No Reloads game (IMO, of course) - i can't see one even getting through Improved Ilyich. For this type of game, the Sorcerer is probably the best choice - blast from a distance, perfectly safe, while your army of summons (web + spiders -> haste + skellies -> planetars + globe of blades) mops up everything. It's damn boring, though. I'm also thinking of trying a SNR game with the same setup (Insane + Tactics) - and i'm having a hard time picking between the Halfling F/T (easy early game, good saves, traps, fighter part, but no summons), the Gnomish T/M (summons, traps, good saves, magic, but no fighter part) and the Half Elven F/M/T (summons, traps, magic, fighter part, almost everything - but lousy saves, slow advancement and no 9th level spells).

[Rataxes]

F/M/C's get Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, AoF, DUHM, Righteous Magic, Free Action and Greater Restoration (Heals 100% at 0 Casting time). And that's on top of everything that makes the F/M great. I can imagine at least Death Ward and Chaotic Commands being almost essential, lest you should die to a Finger of Death. Of course, he won't have lvl 9 spells and will level up very slowly in the beginning so I suppose it's not the ultimate choice for a No-reloads game.

Imp Ilyich can, or at least could, be dealt with with a bunch of Skull Traps and using Invisibility to sleep as many times as you need to. Might be trickier with the new patrolling script, but I still think it's doable.
Ok, so I can probably get on without cheating in Mage HLA's with SK. Dragon's breath is not essential. I think I'll probably be alright with just Devas, since I will myself be a far more capable cleric than any Planetar could, and though no Imp Alacrity really hurts (had some neat prebuffing combos planned [img]smile.gif[/img] ) I suppose I could always use the save/reload trick if I get really desperate to have all those gazillion short-duration buffs.

Just a question Alson, do you use the XP Cap remover in solo games? Or are you content with maxing out half-way through SoA?

I think a F/T is going to be really tough since he lacks any kind of spells. Traps go a long way, but not all the way, they wont be enough to handle Imp Irenicus for instance, not in a No-reloads game anyway [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Really easy early on, Imp Ilyich is close to a complete pushover for any sort of Thief. F/M/T might work, but overall I think it's weaker than the F/M/C. Certain clerical spells are of more importance than traps IMO.

[ 03-15-2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Rataxes: F/M/C's get Death Ward, Chaotic Commands, AoF, DUHM, Righteous Magic, Free Action and Greater Restoration (Heals 100% at 0 Casting time)

... which are weaker than Dragon's Breath (ignores MR!) + Improved Alacrity (self evident, right? ) + Planetar (so much better than the Deva... see the Spells Reference if you wanna see why).

Clerics have amazing buffs. Most of them can be emulated by items, though. (yes, a sad smiley - Clerics could have been fun to play).

I can imagine at least Death Ward and Chaotic Commands being almost essential, lest you should die to a Finger of Death.

Death Ward? Hindo's Doom +4 and/or Potions of Invulnerability (they stack!)

Chaotic Commands? Greenstone Amulet (the Fighter/Illusionist that comes with Tactics has an amulet with an "always-on" protection!)

Free Action? Ring of.

Greater Restoration? Hindo's Doom, again.

Healing? Peeelize!

Imp Ilyich can, or at least could, be dealt with with a bunch of Skull Traps and using Invisibility to sleep as many times as you need to. Might be trickier with the new patrolling script, but I still think it's doable.

You're the II expert around, so i'll take your word for it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ok, so I can probably get on without cheating in Mage HLA's with SK. Dragon's breath is not essential. I think I'll probably be alright with just Devas, since I will myself be a far more capable cleric than any Planetar could, and though no Imp Alacrity really hurts (had some neat prebuffing combos planned [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Yes.

I suppose I could always use the save/reload trick if I get really desperate to have all those gazillion short-duration buffs.

Hmm? What save/reload trick? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Or is this an ironic joke because we're discussing SNR game? (hey, i only slept 4 hours last night!)

Just a question Alson, do you use the XP Cap remover in solo games? Or are you content with maxing out half-way through SoA?

Actually, i seldom play solo - i find parties much more fun. But when i do play solo, yes, i play with the Cap Remover. The game kinda loses its charm when you stop advancing...

Later added by Rataxes: I think a F/T is going to be really tough since he lacks any kind of spells. Traps go a long way, but not all the way, they wont be enough to handle Imp Irenicus for instance, not in a No-reloads game anyway.

Ahh... but i'll have Use Any Scroll by then, now, won't I? It's the lack of Planetars which bothers me.

Really easy early on, Imp Ilyich is close to a complete pushover for any sort of Thief. F/M/T might work, but overall I think it's weaker than the F/M/C. Certain clerical spells are of more importance than traps IMO.

I disagree - see above.

[ 03-15-2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[daan]

Why arent you taking your ultimate combination Alson ?
I ignored your posts after a while,.. so my ranger/cleric is still superior.., but why not ?

[Alson]

Originally posted by daan: Why arent you taking your ultimate combination Alson ?

I assume you mean the Fighter/Mage? Possibly... but traps are too potent.

I ignored your posts after a while,.. so my ranger/cleric is still superior..,

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

but why not ?

Traps. Live by 'em or die by 'em.

[daan]

I'm beginning to notice that too with my assasin
Though he's lvl 21 or something and has only 4 or 5 traps ... ah well

They came in pretty handy with the Improved Beholders, didnt kill anything though ..

Oh, and [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] I love the man that made the improved beholders !!
I was facing 2 Elder Orbs and 1 Hive mother .. got Mazed 50+ times while fighting them solo as a Greater Werewolf .. but they *never* casted Imprisonment. That's a good sport [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Rataxes]

Clerics have amazing buffs. Most of them can be emulated by items, though. (yes, a sad smiley - Clerics could have been fun to play).

It is a very limited simulation that most items offer though.

Death Ward? Hindo's Doom +4 and/or Potions of Invulnerability (they stack!) Chaotic Commands? Greenstone Amulet (the Fighter/Illusionist that comes with Tactics has an amulet with an "always-on" protection!) Free Action? Ring of. Greater Restoration? Hindo's Doom, again. Healing? Peeelize!

So much hassle. Constantly chugging potions or switching amulets and weapons just to do what one or two clerical rituals can do [img]smile.gif[/img] I will agree that most clerical advantages can be emulated somewhat, but we're not talking about a good or smooth emulation here

Hmm? What save/reload trick? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Or is this an ironic joke because we're discussing SNR game? (hey, i only slept 4 hours last night!)

Well no, of course I can't use the save/reload trick in this sort of game, think I had some sort of blackout [img]smile.gif[/img] Anyway, the trick is that reloading always initiates a new round, so you can cast a prebuff, immediately quick-save, then reload and immediately cast a new spell. Semi-cheating way of simulating Imp Alacrity in a prebuffing session.

Actually, i seldom play solo - i find parties much more fun. But when i do play solo, yes, i play with the Cap Remover. The game kinda loses its charm when you stop advancing...

I've reached the same conclusion after having played a full-size party in my three most recent games, but now I feel like I need something different [img]smile.gif[/img] I could of course go for a party in a No-reloads game, but I can imagine it being a complete nightmare.

Ahh... but i'll have Use Any Scroll by then, now, won't I? It's the lack of Planetars which bothers me.

Oh but come on now! Hardly a decent substitute for a mage is it? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Unless you're hinting at clone cheese, which you probably are, considering the extremely challenging circumstances [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-15-2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Rataxes: So much hassle. Constantly chugging potions or switching amulets and weapons just to do what one or two clerical rituals can do [img]smile.gif[/img] I will agree that most clerical advantages can be emulated somewhat, but we're not talking about a good or smooth emulation here

Not smooth, but definitely better, power-wise. There are no items which can set Spike Traps. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well no, of course I can't use the save/reload trick in this sort of game, think I had some sort of blackout [img]smile.gif[/img] [/qb]

LOL! It happens. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyway, the trick is that reloading always initiates a new round, so you can cast a prebuff, immediately quick-save, then reload and immediately cast a new spell. Semi-cheating way of simulating Imp Alacrity in a prebuffing session.

Nice. I did not know that.

I've reached the same conclusion after having played a full-size party in my three most recent games, but now I feel like I need something different [img]smile.gif[/img] I could of course go for a party in a No-reloads game, but I can imagine it being a complete nightmare.

Indeed! Keeping six characters alive is about ten times harder than keeping only one alive.

[Rataxes]

So would you completely let go of any cheese restrictions you've set for yourself with these rules Alson? There's so much cheese in the game that I nowadays subconsciously ignore completely, like Prot from Magic scrolls, Cloak of Mirroring and the Shield of Balduran. Resorting to those methods once again, which actually are completely legal, would remove quite a few listings on my "serious obstacles list" [img]smile.gif[/img]