RE: Ages VS. Ram, Round 1

[Alson]

A while ago, Jim, Dundee and I decided to find who is THE most damaging weapon in the game. I can't seem to locate the thread using the search function, so i'll do the calculations. The reason i'm doing this all over again is due to a new surprising finding about the Staff of Ram - the 1D4 damage is not doubled. So... let the match begiiiin!

In the right corner we have, weighting 8 BG2 weight-units, featuring five different heads - the Flail of Ages +5!! 1D6+6 basic damage, +10 elemental damage.

In the left corner we have, weighting merely 1 BG2 weight-units, the dubious light wight champion of the world - the Staf of Ram +6!! 1D6+12 basic damage, +1D4 piercing damage.

To balance things out as much as possible, Ages is not dual wielded, nor used in conjunction with a shield. Two * in single/two handed weapon, respectively, so 1 is always a Critical Miss, while 19 and 20 are always Critical Hits. We're ignoring STR bonuses, GoES and the like, because they are identical to both. Attacks per Round rate is also identical, so no point taking it into account.

Ring, ring!

The Flail of Ages will begin:

1 * 0 + 17 * (1D6+6+10) + 2 * (1D6+6+1D6+6+10) = 19.475 on average, 22.1 maximum.

Most impressive! Now lets see what the Staff has to offer.

The Staff of Ram counters:

1 * 0 + 17 * (1D6+12+1D4) + 2 * (1D6+12+1D6+12+1D4) = 18.65 on average, 22.7 maximum.

Phew! That was close!

Still, the referee has no choice but to rule in favor of the Flail of Ages +5. Kensais and Blades loudly protest, but to no avail.

Pure damage aside, keep in mind that elemental damage cuts right through Stoneskins (and thus disrupting spells), Slow trumps Sleep+Knockback (every ToB enemy and his mother are immune to Sleep, while Knockback acts, in most cases, against you, by pushing your enemy away - which is just plain annoying). Not to mention dual wielding.

That's enough rant for today. Any comments? Jim? Dundee?

Plus, wohoo! New avatar!

[ 02-15-2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Bardan the Slayer]

It's a convincing argument, and I have always preferred FoA due to the increased weilding options and elemental damage. The *one* area where Staff of the Ram is the best weapon in the game is that it can be used for crippling backstabs [img]smile.gif[/img]

[masteraleph]

If you factor in other weapons' special effects though, does it hold true? Like say, Ravager +6...

[Rataxes]

No errors to be found in those calcs, though I wonder how you ended up with 19.474 instead of 19.475 [img]tongue.gif[/img] You also have to consider the fact that your damage is more likely to suffer due to enemy resistances with FoA than with SotR though, since elemental resistances/immunities are very common, which cannot be said for Crushing and Piercing resistances.

Though FoA's special abilities along with the ability to dual-wield it makes it come out far ahead anyway, for fighters that is.

[ 02-15-2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by masteraleph: If you factor in other weapons' special effects though, does it hold true? Like say, Ravager +6...

Oh, this is not a "best weapon" thread. It is a "most damaging weapon" thread. Of course, overall and powerwise, Ravager +6 trumps both Ages +5 and Ram +6 big time. It is truly a broken weapon, second (only!) to the Staff of the Macheese in its cheese scale.

[ 02-15-2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Rataxes: No errors to be found in those calcs, though I wonder how you ended up with 19.474 instead of 19.475 [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Oops! Typo! Edited, thanks.

You also have to consider the fact that your damage is more likely to suffer due to enemy resistances with FoA than with SotR though, since elemental resistances/immunities are very common, which cannot be said for Crushing and Piercing resistances.

You would think so... but no. Just use Near Infinity or Shadowkeeper to browse through some .CRE files. By the time both weapons are fully assembled, enemies are more likely to have X% resistance to physical damage rather than X% resistance to elemental damage all around. In addition, Ages will cuts through Stoneskin while Ram won't.

Though FoA's special abilities along with the ability to dual-wield it makes it come out far ahead anyway, for fighters that is.

Yeah, that too. Still, for fairness, i left this matter aside - pure damage was my interest.

[Jim]

A while ago, Jim, Dundee and I decided to find who is THE most damaging weapon in the game. I can't seem to locate the thread using the search function, so i'll do the calculations. The reason i'm doing this all over again is due to a new surprising finding about the Staff of Ram - the 1D4 damage is not doubled. So... let the match begiiiin!

Ahh, yes I remember. Think this was the first thread where we actually met for the first time! I can't find that thread either plus I think I just took the server down using the search facility

Actually, the Staff of the Ram+6 doesn't include the 1D4 piercing damage at all!. It was only when I was making the thread about the most powerful backstab that I realised it "merely" delt 1D6+12 crushing damage. If anyone wants the improved staff of the ram btw, it can be found at the bottom of the first post in the link above (Dundee, any idea where the thread labelled "MASSIVE critical hits" is.....you know the one can't seem to find it anywhere). I simply used IEEP to add 1D4 aditional piercing damage in the same fashion as the elemental damage is added to Ages. You are therefore correct in that the 1D4 is not doubled.

To balance things out as much as possible, Ages is not dual wielded, nor used in conjunction with a shield. Two * in single/two handed weapon, respectively, so 1 is always a Critical Miss, while 19 and 20 are always Critical Hits. We're ignoring STR bonuses, GoES and the like, because they are identical to both. Attacks per Round rate is also identical, so no point taking it into account.

It doesn't seem like you've taken proficiency into account however. I feel that this should be done, since using a 2-H weapon will always provide a +1 damage bonus over single handed weapons (provided you have ** in 2 handed weapon style). This actually closes the gap to just 0.5 average damage between the two, with Ram having +1 higher maximum damage over ages. Then you've got to consider that critical hits pack substantially more punch with Ram over Ages.....the 1D4 piercing damage is not doubled, but this accounts for a small portion of the total damage from Ram. In Ages case, a substabtial amount of its total damage is not doubled.

I've worked out the damage slightly differently to you, although the results are just as conclusive. Over a window of 10 attacks, one would expect one critical hit with these 2 bonus proficiencies. Taking nothing but proficiency damage into account (assuming GM patch):

RAM:
10 * (1D6+12+1D4+6) = 200-280, average 240 damage (20-28 damage per hit - average 24)

Since one of these hits can be expected to be a critical hit, we'll subtract one instance of 24 damage, and then add the value from one critical hit:

240-24=216

(((1D6+12+6)*2)+1D4) = 39-52, 43 average damage per critical hit

216+43= 259 damage (total average).

--------------------------------------------------

AGES:
10 * (1D6+6+10+5) = 245 (22-27 damage per hit, average 24.5)

245-24.5=220.5

(((1D6+6+5)*2)+10) = 34-44, 39 average damage per critical hit

220.5+(39)= 259.5 damage (total average).

So, overall, Ages *does* come out on top, by a mere 0.5 damage, *however*, I'm still reluctant to hand over the crown here [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

You also have to consider the fact that your damage is more likely to suffer due to enemy resistances with FoA than with SotR though, since elemental resistances/immunities are very common, which cannot be said for Crushing and Piercing resistances.

As Rataxes quite rightly pointed out, physical immunity is a very rare thing indeed, where as the chance that an enemy in ToB has some resistance to one of the 5 elements is very common. Even if an enemy has a 50% resistance to an element, ages effectively loses 1 point of damage, with Ram coming out on top. By the time you have forged Ages+5, you are also *very* near the end of the game (having conquered Watchers Keep and Completing Abazigals lair...). At this late stage, the enemies are becoming very powerful indeed, and elemental resistance becomes commonplace.

Still, the referee has no choice but to rule in favor of the Flail of Ages +5. Kensais and Blades loudly protest, but to no avail.

Well, my Kensai protests, but definately not to no avail [img]tongue.gif[/img] . The Staff of the Ram may have a lower (all be it a very small one) average over Ages, but it undesputadly has a higher maximum (and a weapon with the highest maximum damage could be crowned "most damaging weapon in the game" here and now, but we'll continue...). It's got a lower minimum however too, but this becomes less insignificant when using a kensai. The kensai has many Kai abilities by level 40, which will push the full D6 of the staff as well as the full D4 of the piercing damage. Since this gives a higher maximum, it trumps ages for every hit in the next 10 seconds (which translates to around 10 attacks when using improved haste). A level 40 kensai has 10 kai abilities, which roughly translates to 100 assaults of max damage, with the critical hits putting ages to shame (by +8 damage a piece!). Also, my kensai took 3-4 critical strikes as HLA's, this means that he can choose when to push the staff to the max (provided that the enemy is not immune to criticals), again coming out on top.

Finally, the SoTR is responsible for the single most devastating melee assault in the history of Baldur's Gate, but that's another story.....

I think it's fair to say that these two mega weapons are neck and neck when it comes to the most damaging weapon in the game, so I'll declare it a draw [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-16-2003, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Jim ]

[Gangrell]

Yes, but you do have more of an advantage with Staff of the Ram +6 because of it's ability to knock an enemy back remember?

[Jim]

Originally posted by Gangrell: Yes, but you do have more of an advantage with Staff of the Ram +6 because of it's ability to knock an enemy back remember?

For this excercise, we're ignoring weapon candy, we're just interested in determining the most damaging weapon in the game. Otherwise, ages with its slow effect would win hands down, since its undeniably a better weapon, its just controversial if it's more damaging...... [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: Damn you Alson!! I want that Avatar..... [img]smile.gif[/img] got some way to go yet though since I'm nowhere near even the Emerald Dragon

[ 02-16-2003, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Jim ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Jim: Ahh, yes I remember. Think this was the first thread where we actually met for the first time! I can't find that thread either plus I think I just took the server down using the search facility

LOL!

Actually, the Staff of the Ram+6 doesn't include the 1D4 piercing damage at all!. It was only when I was making the thread about the most powerful backstab that I realised it "merely" delt 1D6+12 crushing damage. If anyone wants the improved staff of the ram btw, it can be found at the bottom of the first post in the link above (Dundee, any idea where the thread labelled "MASSIVE critical hits" is.....you know the one can't seem to find it anywhere). I simply used IEEP to add 1D4 aditional piercing damage in the same fashion as the elemental damage is added to Ages. You are therefore correct in that the 1D4 is not doubled.

Yeah, i noticed that the 1D4 damage isn't there, but i still took it into account. Ram needed all the help it could get. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It doesn't seem like you've taken proficiency into account however. I feel that this should be done, since using a 2-H weapon will always provide a +1 damage bonus over single handed weapons (provided you have ** in 2 handed weapon style). This actually closes the gap to just 0.5 average damage between the two, with Ram having +1 higher maximum damage over ages. Then you've got to consider that critical hits pack substantially more punch with Ram over Ages.....the 1D4 piercing damage is not doubled, but this accounts for a small portion of the total damage from Ram. In Ages case, a substabtial amount of its total damage is not doubled.

Yeah, 2 * (Ram's damage) is bigger than 2 * (Ages' damage), but it is offseted by the dact that 17 * (Ram's damage) is lower than 17 * (Ages' damage).

I've worked out the damage slightly differently to you, although the results are just as conclusive. Over a window of 10 attacks, one would expect one critical hit with these 2 bonus proficiencies. Taking nothing but proficiency damage into account (assuming GM patch): RAM: 10 * (1D6+12+1D4+6) = 200-280, average 240 damage (20-28 damage per hit - average 24) Since one of these hits can be expected to be a critical hit, we'll subtract one instance of 24 damage, and then add the value from one critical hit: 240-24=216 (((1D6+12+6)*2)+1D4) = 39-52, 43 average damage per critical hit 216+43= 259 damage (total average). -------------------------------------------------- AGES: 10 * (1D6+6+10+5) = 245 (22-27 damage per hit, average 24.5) 245-24.5=220.5 (((1D6+6+5)*2)+10) = 34-44, 39 average damage per critical hit 220.5+(39)= 259.5 damage (total average). So, overall, Ages *does* come out on top, by a mere 0.5 damage, *however*, I'm still reluctant to hand over the crown here [img]tongue.gif[/img] .

We'll see about that. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

As Rataxes quite rightly pointed out, physical immunity is a very rare thing indeed, where as the chance that an enemy in ToB has some resistance to one of the 5 elements is very common. Even if an enemy has a 50% resistance to an element, ages effectively loses 1 point of damage, with Ram coming out on top. By the time you have forged Ages+5, you are also *very* near the end of the game (having conquered Watchers Keep and Completing Abazigals lair...). At this late stage, the enemies are becoming very powerful indeed, and elemental resistance becomes commonplace.

As i suggested to Rataxes, , just browse some high level CRE files in NI or SK. At higher levels, physical immunity IS common. Take a look at the Five's files, for instance. There's no point in saying "Kobolds have 25% elemental resistance but 0% physical resistance", because Kobolds don't pose a threat anyway. Kobolds don't really have 25% elemental resistance, BTW. [img]tongue.gif[/img] High level enemies, however, always have physical resistance. Moreover, High level enemies usually have Stoneskin.

Well, my Kensai protests, but definately not to no avail [img]tongue.gif[/img] . The Staff of the Ram may have a lower (all be it a very small one) average over Ages, but it undesputadly has a higher maximum (and a weapon with the highest maximum damage could be crowned "most damaging weapon in the game" here and now, but we'll continue...). It's got a lower minimum however too, but this becomes less insignificant when using a kensai. The kensai has many Kai abilities by level 40, which will push the full D6 of the staff as well as the full D4 of the piercing damage. Since this gives a higher maximum, it trumps ages for every hit in the next 10 seconds (which translates to around 10 attacks when using improved haste). A level 40 kensai has 10 kai abilities, which roughly translates to 100 assaults of max damage, with the critical hits putting ages to shame (by +8 damage a piece!). Also, my kensai took 3-4 critical strikes as HLA's, this means that he can choose when to push the staff to the max (provided that the enemy is not immune to criticals), again coming out on top.

Heh... That's why i said that Kensais and Blades protest - under the effect of Kai/Offensive Spin, Ram will trump Ages. It is to no avail, though, because we're not judging whether "weapon Y is more damaging than weapon Z in the hands of class X", but whether "weapon Y is more damaging than weapon Z in general".

I think it's fair to say that these two mega weapons are neck and neck when it comes to the most damaging weapon in the game, so I'll declare it a draw [img]smile.gif[/img]

Almost a tie. [img]smile.gif[/img]