RE: Improved Ilynich Mod's Shadow Thieves

[Dundee Slaytern]

Spinoff discussion from the Tactics Mod Review thread.

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Besides modifying the .bcs file that controls the AI behaviour of the Shadow Thieves in the Improved Ilynich component of the Tactics Mod (the ones that spawn when you rest), I plan to modify the .cre file of the Shadow Thief.

Note that all modifications are not official, official as in "Weimer-approved". Of course it would be spiffy if he incorporated it into his Mod, but for now everything here is unofficial.

Some things we know about the Shadow Thieves in Jon Irenicus' Dungeon.

1) They are pansies. Everybody from the Duergars, the Mephits, the lady clone, etc... kick their a$$e$. So do not expect any superbuffed up SThief.

2) They do not exist on the first level.

3) They are there to kick Jon Irenicus' a$$ but... see 1)

In the Improved Ilynich Component, the Shadow Thief is a Human multiclassed Thief/Mage, level 8/8. All his Saving Throws are 10. HP = 40. THAC0 = 10.

Base AC: 5 STR: 18 DEX: 18 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10

Despite the Mage class though, it has no memorised spells. It would not matter though... since the SThief is wearing Leather Armour which would disable spellcasting anyway.

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Discussion time,

1) What would be an ideal level for the SThief? I have decided on a Human dualclassed Assassin->Mage. Level 6->7 is the current choice. Feel free to discuss other possible levels. Remember though... they are pansies.

2) Spells... what kind of spells will these SThieves have? Enchanted equipment will just make the player richer, so bear that in mind.

Lvl 01: 4 slots

Currently: Magic Missile x4

Lvl 02: 3 slots

Currently: Invisibility x3

Lvl 03: 2 slots

Currently: Haste x1, Slow x1

Lvl 04: 1 slot

Currently: Improved Invisibility x1

Note: It is presumed that the SThief buffed up before entering the dungeon, so Armor is automatically given to the SThief upon spawning. Armor lasts for 9 hours and can last through one night rest. Stoneskin is currently not included, unless players feel that it is alright.

Minor Spell Sequencer is also under consideration.

Thoughts on what might fit better? Remember to think like the SThief, not as a powergamer.

3) Base AC = 10
THAC0 = 17

STR: 15
DEX: 15
CON: 15
INT: 17
WIS: 10
CHA: 08

HP: 47

SaveVsDeath: 12
SaveVsWand: 9
SaveVsPolymorphing: 11
SaveVsBreath: 13
SaveVsSpell: 10

Hide in Shadows: 70%
Move Silently: 60%

4) They currently use unenchanted Long Swords. This however, gives an immense advantage to the Totemic Druid. Should they use +1 enchanted weapons? If so, what kind? Daggers? Short Swords? Or maybe... Clubs?

[ 02-23-2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Gangrell]

That is the biggest mistake made when people tried to take the Shadow Thieves into consideration. Weimer gave them a mage class which was a useless idea because they have no spells, same goes for the original Mae'Var, he has a mage class but it couldn't be used because they put armor on him.

Honestly Dundee, I don't think the Shadow Thieves should have a mage class, I think the Assassin/Mage classes should remain seperate (you have your killers and your wizards). Now unless you put bracers of defence on them, negating the armor, I suppose it would be alright (even if they are pansies, AC of 10 is too weak). Ideal levels for a thief/mage, I would probably go with 5/7.

I agree with your spells suggested for their spell slots, but for the third level, I would most likely go with Dire Charm and Haste.

Thinking like a thief wise spell wise, haste would work because it is a thief tactic, not to stay in the thick of the battle but to be quick on your feet, attack and retreat. Dire Charm, speaks for yourself, "I'm not powerful, so my enemy will fight for me."

As long as we're on the subject, is the future modifications going to include any quick slot items for them to use? (wands of fear and such)

[shamrock_uk]

Haste for those quick getaways? Sleep would be handy in sneaking past a roomful of guards... Perhaps blur as well?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Gangrell: That is the biggest mistake made when people tried to take the Shadow Thieves into consideration. Weimer gave them a mage class which was a useless idea because they have no spells, same goes for the original Mae'Var, he has a mage class but it couldn't be used because they put armor on him. Honestly Dundee, I don't think the Shadow Thieves should have a mage class, I think the Assassin/Mage classes should remain seperate (you have your killers and your wizards). Now unless you put bracers of defence on them, negating the armor, I suppose it would be alright (even if they are pansies, AC of 10 is too weak). Ideal levels for a thief/mage, I would probably go with 5/7. ~ As long as we're on the subject, is the future modifications going to include any quick slot items for them to use? (wands of fear and such)

Hence the Mage class. So that they can legitimately use the wands. It is true that non-Mages can be forced to use wands via a script, but for the sake of legitimacy, the Mage class is a necessity.

The wands and the dogs still remain.

By the by, it is the base AC that is 10. After the Armor spell and DEX bonuses, the effective AC is 5. With Improved Invisibility... it will be AC 1.

Weimer's original SThieves had an effective AC of 1.

Consider your THAC0 in Jon Irenicus' Dungeon. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Just because I am tweaking a Weimer Mod, does not mean I am going to make everything weaker. Just more kosher. [img]smile.gif[/img] If I wanted to be really mean, I would have thrown either Ghost Armor or Shield in.

I agree with your spells suggested for their spell slots, but for the third level, I would most likely go with Dire Charm and Haste. Thinking like a thief wise spell wise, haste would work because it is a thief tactic, not to stay in the thick of the battle but to be quick on your feet, attack and retreat. Dire Charm, speaks for yourself, "I'm not powerful, so my enemy will fight for me."

Hmmmm... Dire Charm? Not sure why, but it does not seem appropriate for a SThief. Haste sounds good though. I think I will replace Vampiric Touch with it.

[ 02-23-2004, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: Haste for those quick getaways? Sleep would be handy in sneaking past a roomful of guards... Perhaps blur as well?

Pansies as they might be, I do not consider them fools in the idiotic sense of the word. Sleep is very weak, and only a suicidal moron will memorise it when assaulting a rival guild. Color Spray is an option though. What do you think?

Blur. Hmmmm... it would make the best possible AC for the SThief to -2 (combined with Armor, 15 DEX and Improved Invisibility). I have no objections to it, but would the regular run-of-the-mill players have any?

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Pansies as they might be, I do not consider them fools in the idiotic sense of the word. Sleep is very weak, and only a suicidal moron will memorise it when assaulting a rival guild. Color Spray is an option though. What do you think? Blur. Hmmmm... it would make the best possible AC for the SThief to -2 (combined with Armor, 15 DEX and Improved Invisibility). I have no objections to it, but would the regular run-of-the-mill players have any?

Lol, that's a good point, I was thinking of normal level 1 commoners but of course these guys are a bit more hardcore with a big job to do. I would perhaps be against colour spray because of its randomness. A thief would be a master at planning and contingency...if I was a thief I would want something more definite.

I know it's another debatable spell for the slot in terms of power, but what about grease? Another great getaway spell for an escaping thief perhaps? Can just picture chasing guards slipping up on this I guess it all depends on how much you would expect the thieves to change their usual spell repetoire when attacking someone as powerful as Irenicus. If we give them spells completely commensurate with their class then a lot of them appear useless for the situation we find them in. Ah well, just throwing ideas in the air [img]smile.gif[/img]

And yeah, i take your point about blur, that is very low depending on the class you picked. Although do regular run-of-the-mill players install Improved Ilyich in the first place?

[Dundee Slaytern]

If we assume the most defensive SThief in the world, he will have the following AC,

Base AC: AC 10
Potion of Defence: AC 0
Potion of Dexterity: AC -4
Improved Invisibility: AC -8
Blur: AC -11

Then we throw in Stoneskin (or Fireshield, whichever irritates more) and Mirror Image. I have not even mentioned Minor Spell Sequencer (for a quick Blur + Mirror Image) yet, which is also valid.

The only rational way to deal with this is,

1) Run away, run away, Brave Bhaalspawn. Till the protections wear off.

2) Cast Dispel/Remove Magic and pray.

Of course, to quote SixOfSpades, if I implement all these, the player will most likely throw me out of a high-rise window. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Black Baron]

We must remember that to be a level 6/7 dual, requires loads of experience.
Where all the thieves will get [/i]that[/i] amount of it?

I can recommend a assassin kit only. mages should be implemented separately. That will not be that tough, you can always shoot them or mm them to death, but it will not be that easy yo hack and slash throughout chateau of johny.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Black Baron: We must remember that to be a level 6/7 dual, requires loads of experience. Where all the thieves will get that amount of it?

A (6/7)Assassin->Mage requires 80000XP. Imoen alone has 135000XP at the start of the game, your Char will have at least 89000XP. This makes the SThief crippled, outnumbered, and tactically-challenged.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Note: A 4th point has been added to the original post.