Which is better--thaco or damage?

Shotgun · 10-29-2003, 07:35 PM

I've noticed that a lot of weapons will say stuff like Damage +2, Thaco +4. What makes for a better weapon--a higher thaco or higher damage score?

Grammar · 10-29-2003, 08:31 PM

Generally a higher damage score. Assuming you're using the weapon with someone who has a high chance to hit the opponent, such as a fighter, increasing the chance to hit someone by 2 is not going to make much of a difference. However, adding 2 damage to each attack is still going to be useful - it always affects the outcome of the attack, whereas +2 to the chance to hit is generally not making a difference.

Lord · 10-29-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grammar:
Generally a higher damage score. Assuming you're using the weapon with someone who has a high chance to hit the opponent, such as a fighter, increasing the chance to hit someone by 2 is not going to make much of a difference. However, adding 2 damage to each attack is still going to be useful - it always affects the outcome of the attack, whereas +2 to the chance to hit is generally not making a difference.

No, it still makes a big difference with +2 thac0. I've taken a warrior to level 36 or so before, and his thac0 was something like -13 or -14, but he'd still miss a lot. +2 damage really isn't that big, but it's still nice to do more damage. They're both important, neither is better.

Dar'tanian · 10-29-2003, 09:09 PM

It really depends on what you like better and on what your character is like.

Grammar · 10-29-2003, 11:11 PM

What were you attacking such that he missed a lot with -14 thac0?? Was this before or after you take into account other bonuses to thac0?

Klutz · 10-30-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shotgun:
I've noticed that a lot of weapons will say stuff like Damage +2, Thaco +4. What makes for a better weapon--a higher thaco or higher damage score?

Just between those two factors, more than 9 times out of 10, damage. I would pay more attention to THACO for a non-Fighter that doesn't have any abilities that improve THACO, but damage would still be the higher priority. Also, you can overkill on THACO, since the max adjusted chance to hit is 95% be it a goblin or dragon, but there's no cap on damage.

Xen · 10-30-2003, 12:23 PM

I say THACO. Why? Becuase you can hit for a 1000000000000000 dmg if you want but if you have crappy THACO and you don`t hit anything that dmg doesn`t raelly matter.

[ 10-30-2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

SixOfSpades · 10-30-2003, 03:22 PM

For Warriors: Damage.
For non-Warriors: THAC0.
For everybody: Level of enchantment.

Black Baron · 10-30-2003, 04:42 PM

Depends on kind of weapon. Generaly-thaco would be better, but if you use a short sword +3 and want to switch to great sowrd +2, i will take the long sword every day.

Faceman · 10-30-2003, 04:49 PM

Assuming you attack an enemy with an AC of 0 wielding a sword with 1d8 damage and have a THAC0 of 11
You will on average cause 2.475dmg/attack

code:
(Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks

[(0*10)+(4.5*9)+(9*1)]/20 = 2.475
[/QUOTE]With a THAC0 bonus of -1 it will be 2.7dmg/attack
code:
(Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks

[(0*10)+(4.5*10)+(9*1)]/20 = 2.7
[/QUOTE]and with a damage bonus of +1 it will be 3.05dmg/attack
code:
(Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks

[(0*10)+(5.5*9)+(11*1)]/20 = 3.05
[/QUOTE]It seems that damage is winning but now we're going abstract (if you don't want to read the algebra babble just skip down to the results at the bottom of my post):
You're trying to hit an enemy with an AC of "AC"
You're using a standard sword with XdY dmg => "dmg" average damage
your THAC0 is "THAC0"
Thus you're doing an average damage of dmg/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC) per attack
If THAC0-AC is >19 it's just dmg/10 (just Critical Hit)
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Critical Miss+Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*1)+(0*(THAC0-AC-2))+(dmg*(20-(THAC0-AC)))+(dmg*2*1)]/20 = dmg/20 * (22-THAC0+AC)
---------------------------------------------------------------
With a THAC0 -1 this goes up to dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC)
OR dmg/10 (just Critical Hit)
---------
With +1 dmg it goes up to (dmg+1)/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC)
or
(dmg+1)/10 (just Critical Hit)
------------------
Now assuming the damage bonus has the bigger effect
------------------------------------------------------
(dmg+1)/20 * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC)
(dmg+1) * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg * ((22-THAC0+AC)+1)
dmg*(22-THAC0+AC) + (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg*(22-THAC0+AC) + dmg
(22-THAC0+AC) > dmg
------------------------------------------------------
What does this mean?
The better your THAC0 and the worse your opponents AC (e.g. lvl 20 fighter vs. Goblin) the more average damage you will inflict with the damage bonus
The worse your THAC0 and the better the opponents AC the better you fare with the THAC0 bonus
-
Now we take a look at the extreme cases:
Assuming THAC0-AC > 20 (i.e. you can only hit your opponent because of the Critical hit exception) the dmg bonus clearly wins:
------------
(dmg+1)/10 > dmg/10
------------
Assuming THAC0-AC = 20 (i.e. you can hit your opponent at a roll of 20 which also happens to be a critical) the THAC0 bounus turns the tide for another possible hit
------------
(dmg+1)/10 ? dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC)
2*dmg+2 ? dmg*3
------------
unless dmg is less than 2 (which doesn't even happen with a Dagger) the THAC0 bonus wins (the "?" turns into a ">" ).
------------
If 2 > THAC0-AC (i.e. you always hit except for Critical Miss) the damage bonus wins again as
dmg+1 > dmg
------------
For everything else the above formula applies stating that if 22-(THAC0-AC) is bigger than you average dmg the damage bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.
-
-
-
-
Results:
The damage bonus wins if

THAC0-AC > 20 : You are way weaker than your enemy.

2 > THAC0-AC : You are way stronger than your enemy.

The THAC0 bonus wins if

THAC0-AC = 20 : You are weak your enemy is strong but you could hit him once even if there was no Critical.

ELSE
it comes down to the relation of the average damage of your weapon and the THAC0-AC.
If (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg is a true statement the dmg bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.

P.S.:still working on it be ready in some minutes
Hope I didn't miscalculate (it's kinda hard with all the color tags in between ) Please correct me if I did.
It seems that dmg wins but now we're going abstract (if you don't want to read the algebra babble just skip down to the results at the bottom of my post):
You're trying to hit an enemy with an AC of "AC"
You're using a standard sword with XdY dmg => "dmg" average damage
your THAC0 is "THAC0"
Thus you're doing an average damage of dmg/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC) per attack
If THAC0-AC is >19 it's just dmg/10 (just Critical Hit)
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Critical Miss+Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*1)+(0*(THAC0-AC-2))+(dmg*(20-(THAC0-AC)))+(dmg*2*1)]/20 = dmg/20 * (22-THAC0+AC)
---------------------------------------------------------------
With a THAC0 -1 this goes up to dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC)
OR dmg/10 (just Critical Hit)
---------
With +1 dmg it goes up to (dmg+1)/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC)
or
(dmg+1)/10 (just Critical Hit)
------------------
Now assuming the damage bonus has the bigger effect
------------------------------------------------------
(dmg+1)/20 * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC)
(dmg+1) * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg * ((22-THAC0+AC)+1)
dmg*(22-THAC0+AC) + (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg*(22-THAC0+AC) + dmg
(22-THAC0+AC) > dmg
------------------------------------------------------
What does this mean?
The better your THAC0 and the worse your opponents AC (e.g. lvl 20 fighter vs. Goblin) the more average damage you will inflict with the damage bonus
The worse your THAC0 and the better the opponents AC the better you fare with the THAC0 bonus
-
Now we take a look at the extreme cases:
Assuming THAC0-AC > 20 (i.e. you can only hit your opponent because of the Critical hit exception) the dmg bonus clearly wins:
------------
(dmg+1)/10 > dmg/10
------------
Assuming THAC0-AC = 20 (i.e. you can hit your opponent at a roll of 20 which also happens to be a critical) the THAC0 bounus turns the tide for another possible hit
------------
(dmg+1)/10 ? dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC)
2*dmg+2 ? dmg*3
------------
unless dmg is less than 2 (which doesn't even happen with a Dagger) the THAC0 bonus wins (the "?" turns into a ">" ).
------------
If 2 > THAC0-AC (i.e. you always hit except for Critical Miss) the damage bonus wins again as
dmg+1 > dmg
------------
For everything else the above formula applies stating that if 22-(THAC0-AC) is bigger than you average dmg the damage bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.
-
-
-
-
Results:
The damage bonus wins if

THAC0-AC > 20 : You are way weaker than your enemy.

2 > THAC0-AC : You are way stronger than your enemy.

The THAC0 bonus wins if

THAC0-AC = 20 : You are weak your enemy is strong but you could hit him once even if there was no Critical.

ELSE
it comes down to the relation of the average damage of your weapon and the THAC0-AC.
If (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg is a true statement the dmg bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.

Hope I didn't miscalculate (it's kinda hard with all the color tags in between ) Please correct me if I did.

[ 10-30-2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

10-29-2003, 09:09 PM	#4
Dar'tanian Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: October 26, 2002 Location: USA Age: 35 Posts: 858	It really depends on what you like better and on what your character is like. __________________ I\'m back boys...

10-30-2003, 03:22 PM	#8
SixOfSpades Dracolisk Join Date: September 16, 2001 Location: Bellingham, WA, USA Age: 48 Posts: 6,901	For Warriors: Damage. For non-Warriors: THAC0. For everybody: Level of enchantment. __________________ Volothamp's Comeuppance Everything you ever needed to know about the entire Baldur's Gate series......except spoilers.

10-30-2003, 04:42 PM	#9
Black Baron Red Wizard of Thay Join Date: September 7, 2003 Location: Israel Age: 40 Posts: 877	Depends on kind of weapon. Generaly-thaco would be better, but if you use a short sword +3 and want to switch to great sowrd +2, i will take the long sword every day. __________________ Case from my reservist service: Kids attention, I have brought you something... Don't pull that ring private!!

10-30-2003, 04:49 PM	#10
Faceman Hathor Join Date: February 18, 2002 Location: Vienna Age: 43 Posts: 2,248	Assuming you attack an enemy with an AC of 0 wielding a sword with 1d8 damage and have a THAC0 of 11 You will on average cause 2.475dmg/attack code: (Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks [(010)+(4.59)+(91)]/20 = 2.475 [/QUOTE]With a THAC0 bonus of -1 it will be 2.7dmg/attack code: (Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks [(010)+(4.510)+(91)]/20 = 2.7 [/QUOTE]and with a damage bonus of +1 it will be 3.05dmg/attack code: (Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks [(010)+(5.59)+(111)]/20 = 3.05 [/QUOTE]It seems that damage is winning but now we're going abstract (if you don't want to read the algebra babble just skip down to the results at the bottom of my post): You're trying to hit an enemy with an AC of "AC" You're using a standard sword with XdY dmg => "dmg" average damage your THAC0 is "THAC0" Thus you're doing an average damage of dmg/20 (22-(THAC0-AC) per attack If THAC0-AC is >19 it's just dmg/10 (just Critical Hit) -------------------------------------------------------------- (Critical Miss+Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks [(01)+(0(THAC0-AC-2))+(dmg(20-(THAC0-AC)))+(dmg21)]/20 = dmg/20 (22-THAC0+AC) --------------------------------------------------------------- With a THAC0 -1 this goes up to dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC) OR dmg/10 (just Critical Hit) --------- With +1 dmg it goes up to (dmg+1)/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC) or (dmg+1)/10 (just Critical Hit) ------------------ Now assuming the damage bonus has the bigger effect ------------------------------------------------------ (dmg+1)/20 * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC) (dmg+1) * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg * ((22-THAC0+AC)+1) dmg(22-THAC0+AC) + (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg(22-THAC0+AC) + dmg (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg ------------------------------------------------------ What does this mean? The better your THAC0 and the worse your opponents AC (e.g. lvl 20 fighter vs. Goblin) the more average damage you will inflict with the damage bonus The worse your THAC0 and the better the opponents AC the better you fare with the THAC0 bonus - Now we take a look at the extreme cases: Assuming THAC0-AC > 20 (i.e. you can only hit your opponent because of the Critical hit exception) the dmg bonus clearly wins: ------------ (dmg+1)/10 > dmg/10 ------------ Assuming THAC0-AC = 20 (i.e. you can hit your opponent at a roll of 20 which also happens to be a critical) the THAC0 bounus turns the tide for another possible hit ------------ (dmg+1)/10 ? dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC) 2dmg+2 ? dmg3 ------------ unless dmg is less than 2 (which doesn't even happen with a Dagger) the THAC0 bonus wins (the "?" turns into a ">" ). ------------ If 2 > THAC0-AC (i.e. you always hit except for Critical Miss) the damage bonus wins again as dmg+1 > dmg ------------ For everything else the above formula applies stating that if 22-(THAC0-AC) is bigger than you average dmg the damage bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins. - - - - Results: The damage bonus wins if THAC0-AC > 20 : You are way weaker than your enemy. 2 > THAC0-AC : You are way stronger than your enemy. The THAC0 bonus wins if THAC0-AC = 20 : You are weak your enemy is strong but you could hit him once even if there was no Critical. ELSE it comes down to the relation of the average damage of your weapon and the THAC0-AC. If (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg is a true statement the dmg bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins. P.S.:still working on it be ready in some minutes Hope I didn't miscalculate (it's kinda hard with all the color tags in between ) Please correct me if I did. It seems that dmg wins but now we're going abstract (if you don't want to read the algebra babble just skip down to the results at the bottom of my post): You're trying to hit an enemy with an AC of "AC" You're using a standard sword with XdY dmg => "dmg" average damage your THAC0 is "THAC0" Thus you're doing an average damage of dmg/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC) per attack If THAC0-AC is >19 it's just dmg/10 (just Critical Hit) -------------------------------------------------------------- (Critical Miss+Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks [(01)+(0(THAC0-AC-2))+(dmg(20-(THAC0-AC)))+(dmg21)]/20 = dmg/20 (22-THAC0+AC) --------------------------------------------------------------- With a THAC0 -1 this goes up to dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC) OR dmg/10 (just Critical Hit) --------- With +1 dmg it goes up to (dmg+1)/20 * (22-(THAC0-AC) or (dmg+1)/10 (just Critical Hit) ------------------ Now assuming the damage bonus has the bigger effect ------------------------------------------------------ (dmg+1)/20 * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC) (dmg+1) * (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg * ((22-THAC0+AC)+1) dmg(22-THAC0+AC) + (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg(22-THAC0+AC) + dmg (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg ------------------------------------------------------ What does this mean? The better your THAC0 and the worse your opponents AC (e.g. lvl 20 fighter vs. Goblin) the more average damage you will inflict with the damage bonus The worse your THAC0 and the better the opponents AC the better you fare with the THAC0 bonus - Now we take a look at the extreme cases: Assuming THAC0-AC > 20 (i.e. you can only hit your opponent because of the Critical hit exception) the dmg bonus clearly wins: ------------ (dmg+1)/10 > dmg/10 ------------ Assuming THAC0-AC = 20 (i.e. you can hit your opponent at a roll of 20 which also happens to be a critical) the THAC0 bounus turns the tide for another possible hit ------------ (dmg+1)/10 ? dmg/20 * (23-THAC0+AC) 2dmg+2 ? dmg3 ------------ unless dmg is less than 2 (which doesn't even happen with a Dagger) the THAC0 bonus wins (the "?" turns into a ">" ). ------------ If 2 > THAC0-AC (i.e. you always hit except for Critical Miss) the damage bonus wins again as dmg+1 > dmg ------------ For everything else the above formula applies stating that if 22-(THAC0-AC) is bigger than you average dmg the damage bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins. - - - - Results: The damage bonus wins if THAC0-AC > 20 : You are way weaker than your enemy. 2 > THAC0-AC : You are way stronger than your enemy. The THAC0 bonus wins if THAC0-AC = 20 : You are weak your enemy is strong but you could hit him once even if there was no Critical. ELSE it comes down to the relation of the average damage of your weapon and the THAC0-AC. If (22-THAC0+AC) > dmg is a true statement the dmg bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins. Hope I didn't miscalculate (it's kinda hard with all the color tags in between ) Please correct me if I did. [ 10-30-2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ] __________________ \"I am forever spellbound by the frailty of life\"<br /><br /> Faceman

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10-29-2003, 07:35 PM	#1
Shotgun Manshoon Join Date: August 4, 2003 Location: Canada Age: 50 Posts: 180	I've noticed that a lot of weapons will say stuff like Damage +2, Thaco +4. What makes for a better weapon--a higher thaco or higher damage score?

10-29-2003, 08:31 PM	#2
Grammar Zhentarim Guard Join Date: September 15, 2002 Location: Washington Age: 38 Posts: 301	Generally a higher damage score. Assuming you're using the weapon with someone who has a high chance to hit the opponent, such as a fighter, increasing the chance to hit someone by 2 is not going to make much of a difference. However, adding 2 damage to each attack is still going to be useful - it always affects the outcome of the attack, whereas +2 to the chance to hit is generally not making a difference.

10-29-2003, 11:11 PM	#5
Grammar Zhentarim Guard Join Date: September 15, 2002 Location: Washington Age: 38 Posts: 301	What were you attacking such that he missed a lot with -14 thac0?? Was this before or after you take into account other bonuses to thac0?

10-30-2003, 12:23 PM	#7
Xen Symbol of Moradin Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Slovenia,Ljubljana Age: 37 Posts: 8,554	I say THACO. Why? Becuase you can hit for a 1000000000000000 dmg if you want but if you have crappy THACO and you don`t hit anything that dmg doesn`t raelly matter. [ 10-30-2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

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