I've noticed that a lot of weapons will say stuff like Damage +2, Thaco +4. What makes for a better weapon--a higher thaco or higher damage score?

Generally a higher damage score. Assuming you're using the weapon with someone who has a high chance to hit the opponent, such as a fighter, increasing the chance to hit someone by 2 is not going to make much of a difference. However, adding 2 damage to each attack is still going to be useful - it always affects the outcome of the attack, whereas +2 to the chance to hit is generally not making a difference.

No, it still makes a big difference with +2 thac0. I've taken a warrior to level 36 or so before, and his thac0 was something like -13 or -14, but he'd still miss a lot. +2 damage really isn't that big, but it's still nice to do more damage. They're both important, neither is better.

It really depends on what you like better and on what your character is like.

What were you attacking such that he missed a lot with -14 thac0?? Was this before or after you take into account other bonuses to thac0?

Just between those two factors, more than 9 times out of 10, damage. I would pay more attention to THACO for a non-Fighter that doesn't have any abilities that improve THACO, but damage would still be the higher priority. Also, you can overkill on THACO, since the max adjusted chance to hit is 95% be it a goblin or dragon, but there's no cap on damage.

I say THACO. Why? Becuase you can hit for a 1000000000000000 dmg if you want but if you have crappy THACO and you don`t hit anything that dmg doesn`t raelly matter.

[ 10-30-2003, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

For Warriors: Damage.
For non-Warriors: THAC0.
For everybody: Level of enchantment.

Depends on kind of weapon. Generaly-thaco would be better, but if you use a short sword +3 and want to switch to great sowrd +2, i will take the long sword every day.

Assuming you attack an enemy with an AC of 0 wielding a sword with 1d8 damage and have a THAC0 of 11
You will on average cause 2.475dmg/attack
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">(Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*10)+(4.5*9)+(9*1)]/20 = 2.475</pre>[/QUOTE]With a THAC0 bonus of -1 it will be 2.7dmg/attack
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">(Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*10)+(4.5*10)+(9*1)]/20 = 2.7</pre>[/QUOTE]and with a damage bonus of +1 it will be 3.05dmg/attack
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">(Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*10)+(5.5*9)+(11*1)]/20 = 3.05</pre>[/QUOTE]It seems that damage is winning but now we're going abstract (if you don't want to read the algebra babble just skip down to the results at the bottom of my post):
You're trying to hit an enemy with an AC of "<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>"
You're using a standard sword with XdY dmg => "<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>" average damage
your THAC0 is "<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>"
Thus you're doing an average damage of <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (22-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) per attack
If <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> is >19 it's just <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/10 (just Critical Hit)
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Critical Miss+Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*1)+(0*(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>-2))+(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*(20-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)))+(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*2*1)]/20 = <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
---------------------------------------------------------------
With a THAC0 -1 this goes up to <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (23-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
OR <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/10 (just Critical Hit)
---------
With +1 dmg it goes up to (<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/20 * (22-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
or
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/10 (just Critical Hit)
------------------
Now assuming the damage bonus has the bigger effect
------------------------------------------------------
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/20 * (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (23-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1) * (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font> * ((22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)+1)
<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*(22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) + (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*(22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) + <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>
(22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>
------------------------------------------------------
What does this mean?
The better your THAC0 and the worse your opponents AC (e.g. lvl 20 fighter vs. Goblin) the more average damage you will inflict with the damage bonus
The worse your THAC0 and the better the opponents AC the better you fare with the THAC0 bonus
-
Now we take a look at the extreme cases:
Assuming <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> > 20 (i.e. you can only hit your opponent because of the Critical hit exception) the dmg bonus clearly wins:
------------
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/10 > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/10
------------
Assuming <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> = 20 (i.e. you can hit your opponent at a roll of 20 which also happens to be a critical) the THAC0 bounus turns the tide for another possible hit
------------
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/10 ? <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (23-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
2*<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+2 ? <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*3
------------
unless dmg is less than 2 (which doesn't even happen with a Dagger) the THAC0 bonus wins (the "?" turns into a ">" ).
------------
If 2 > <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> (i.e. you always hit except for Critical Miss) the damage bonus wins again as
<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1 > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>
------------
For everything else the above formula applies stating that if 22-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) is bigger than you average dmg the damage bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.
-
-
-
-
Results:
The damage bonus wins if
</font>

• <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> > 20 : You are way weaker than your enemy.</font>
• 2 > <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> : You are way stronger than your enemy.</font>

The THAC0 bonus wins if
</font>

• <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> = 20 : You are weak your enemy is strong but you could hit him once even if there was no Critical.</font>

ELSE
it comes down to the relation of the average damage of your weapon and the <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>.
If (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font> is a true statement the dmg bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.

P.S.:still working on it be ready in some minutes
Hope I didn't miscalculate (it's kinda hard with all the color tags in between ;) ) Please correct me if I did.
It seems that dmg wins but now we're going abstract (if you don't want to read the algebra babble just skip down to the results at the bottom of my post):
You're trying to hit an enemy with an AC of "<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>"
You're using a standard sword with XdY dmg => "<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>" average damage
your THAC0 is "<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>"
Thus you're doing an average damage of <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (22-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) per attack
If <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> is >19 it's just <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/10 (just Critical Hit)
--------------------------------------------------------------
(Critical Miss+Miss+Hit+Critical Hit)/attacks
[(0*1)+(0*(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>-2))+(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*(20-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)))+(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*2*1)]/20 = <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
---------------------------------------------------------------
With a THAC0 -1 this goes up to <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (23-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
OR <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/10 (just Critical Hit)
---------
With +1 dmg it goes up to (<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/20 * (22-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
or
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/10 (just Critical Hit)
------------------
Now assuming the damage bonus has the bigger effect
------------------------------------------------------
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/20 * (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (23-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1) * (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font> * ((22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)+1)
<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*(22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) + (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*(22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) + <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>
(22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>
------------------------------------------------------
What does this mean?
The better your THAC0 and the worse your opponents AC (e.g. lvl 20 fighter vs. Goblin) the more average damage you will inflict with the damage bonus
The worse your THAC0 and the better the opponents AC the better you fare with the THAC0 bonus
-
Now we take a look at the extreme cases:
Assuming <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> > 20 (i.e. you can only hit your opponent because of the Critical hit exception) the dmg bonus clearly wins:
------------
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/10 > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/10
------------
Assuming <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> = 20 (i.e. you can hit your opponent at a roll of 20 which also happens to be a critical) the THAC0 bounus turns the tide for another possible hit
------------
(<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1)/10 ? <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>/20 * (23-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>)
2*<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+2 ? <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>*3
------------
unless dmg is less than 2 (which doesn't even happen with a Dagger) the THAC0 bonus wins (the "?" turns into a ">" ).
------------
If 2 > <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> (i.e. you always hit except for Critical Miss) the damage bonus wins again as
<font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>+1 > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font>
------------
For everything else the above formula applies stating that if 22-(<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) is bigger than you average dmg the damage bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.
-
-
-
-
Results:
The damage bonus wins if
</font>

• <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> > 20 : You are way weaker than your enemy.</font>
• 2 > <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> : You are way stronger than your enemy.</font>

The THAC0 bonus wins if
</font>

• <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font> = 20 : You are weak your enemy is strong but you could hit him once even if there was no Critical.</font>

ELSE
it comes down to the relation of the average damage of your weapon and the <font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>-<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>.
If (22-<font color="#0000FF">THAC0</font>+<font color="#FFFFFF">AC</font>) > <font color="#FF0000">dmg</font> is a true statement the dmg bonus wins else the THAC0 bonus wins.

Hope I didn't miscalculate (it's kinda hard with all the color tags in between ;) ) Please correct me if I did.

[ 10-30-2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]