Evolution/Creation 2 (aka Religion III)

[the sauceman]

So Alexander.....
You would rather put your faith in the Prince of Lies, who will tell you what you want to hear, even though it isnt true....
the Devil, who is ultimately EVIL, everything that is the opposite of good...
you would rather lie to yourself and everyone around you than accept the truth?
you are one wierd individual....
I got to go, but I want to continue this conversation later....

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by the sauceman: So Alexander..... You would rather put your faith in the Prince of Lies, who will tell you what you want to hear, even though it isnt true.... the Devil, who is ultimately EVIL, everything that is the opposite of good... you would rather lie to yourself and everyone around you than accept the truth? you are one wierd individual.... I got to go, but I want to continue this conversation later....

What on earth is this all about? Don't tell me Christianity still preaches the existence of a 'lord of evil' who tempts humankind away from god? I thought that was out nowadays, together with the concept of hell.

Humanity's creation of a 'devil' is just its way of collectively refusing to take responsibility. There is no devil (imo). When we kill, abuse and torture other people, and other forms of life, it is we who do these things (always supposing we do. Maybe some of us don't [img]smile.gif[/img] ) not some mythical devil which exists outside of us.

Devil = human abdication of responsibility.

(Note I'm talking about the Christian devil concept here, not Pan, not Kali, not Set. Of all the concepts which relate to our shadow side, the christian devil seems to me to be simplistic in the extreme, without depth or subtlety.)

So, what's your take on the devil, sauceman? Care to elaborate?

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by MagiK: Have you ever been to California? I've never seen so many "religions" spring up in a years time in my life....of course they are short lived and are usually related to drugs or sex or both... [img]smile.gif[/img]

WHOOOOOPIE!! is that so?

I'm off to California in the summer, sounds like just the place for a little project I've had in mind for some time now... D'you think I'll get many followers? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sir Michael]

From S.C.:

What on earth is this all about? Don't tell me Christianity still preaches the existence of a 'lord of evil' who tempts humankind away from god? I thought that was out nowadays, together with the concept of hell.

That's what I've always heard from my religious friends, as in "Satan get thee behind me," and all that.

I can't tell you how many times my Mormon friends have told me I am going straight to hell because I am not one of them.

Incidentally, if there is a hell, the Christians got it all wrong. It is icy, freezing, bitterly cold, not hot and full of fire and brimstone as is commonly believed.

BTW, I agree with you fully about the whole responsibility thing.

[Silver Cheetah]

Originally posted by Sir Michael: [QB]From S.C.: quote: What on earth is this all about? Don't tell me Christianity still preaches the existence of a 'lord of evil' who tempts humankind away from god? I thought that was out nowadays, together with the concept of hell.

That's what I've always heard from my religious friends, as in "Satan get thee behind me," and all that.

I can't tell you how many times my Mormon friends have told me I am going straight to hell because I am not one of them. [QB][/QUOTE]Blimey. The worst my friends ever do is look a bit sniffy when they spot the empty chocolate packet [img]smile.gif[/img]

[the sauceman]

Ok, guys, I can tell I got some of you kind of miffed. and I didnt get my point across all the way....(i also didnt read all of Alexander's post, sorry.)
My take is that the devil doesnt cause us to do the things we do...
He just causes us to think that what we're doing is justifiable...
and Alexander, Im sorry i neglected to read your entire post, I just kind of went into a state of panic when you said youd rather believe in the Devil....
so the devil doesnt tell us to do the things we do, he just *kind of* hides that it is evil, hence the PRINCE OF LIES title.

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: quote: Originally posted by MagiK: Have you ever been to California? I've never seen so many "religions" spring up in a years time in my life....of course they are short lived and are usually related to drugs or sex or both... [img]smile.gif[/img]

WHOOOOOPIE!! is that so?

I'm off to California in the summer, sounds like just the place for a little project I've had in mind for some time now... D'you think I'll get many followers? [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Umm depending on what kind of "Services" you are going to hold I might volunteer for your church

[Azred]

Originally posted by Sigmar: As I mentioned before I was tired and I wasn't thinking properly

That is not an acceptable excuse! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Sigmar: you are right Azred.

One does one's humble best. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Yorick: During the time of Abraham female cults centred around the worship of Baal/Ashera poles - including orgiastic worshiping rites, and prostitute/priestesses - were predominant in Canaan.

"Gimme that ol' time religion, it's good enough for me." [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Yorick: In any case do our souls have a gender? Do we not all have a 'male and female side'? Gender to me seems only a physical distinction, not a spiritual one. In the womb we all start as the same sex and diverge as we develop.

Gender is a state applicable only to the physical world, that is true. No spiritual being has gender; previous generations applied gender to divinities because that is something so prevalent in our experience that, for some, the concept of not having gender is almost impossible to fathom.

Originally posted by Alexander: I used to be an avid Christian, but through the years I learned that many of God's "followers" were plain hypocrites who twisted his word to satisfy themselves, and who used Christianity as an excuse to bash homosexuals and condemn them all to hell. If that's what our God is like, then I'll opt for Satan, thanks. From all I've heard and seen about God, he's either not omnipotent (and therefore not perfect), or he's pretty picky about who he helps, in which case I think he is an asshole. It's funny how Christianity nowadays is the fastest-shrinking faith, and Islam is the fastest-growing, second only to Atheism (if you can call that a faith). In fact, if it hasn't already, I believe Atheism will replace Christianity as the world's main faith in a year or two.

I hope you didn't let "a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch", so to speak. Not all Christians are like that; it is true that some are, but not all. I left organized religion because I came to realize that I simply did not belong there, not because of what anyone else said or did; please don't make the mistake of letting other determine your religious choices, whether positive or negative. The acts of one group of humans do not--and cannot--define God.

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: Humanity's creation of a 'devil' is just its way of collectively refusing to take responsibility. There is no devil (imo). When we kill, abuse and torture other people, and other forms of life, it is we who do these things (always supposing we do. Maybe some of us don't [img]smile.gif[/img] ) not some mythical devil which exists outside of us.

The Devil has always been as difficult to pin down/describe as has God; always different things for different people. One thing I always find funny is when someone believes in the Devil but not God. [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] How can you have the one but not the other? *shrug* Those folks are just picking and choosing the mythology/religion that suits their personal agenda (which is never a good idea).

[Sir Kenyth]

A little bit of wisdom I heard once. There are many who lose faith for the sole reason of something bad happening to a good person and/or a loved one. Just remember this little pearl when you ask why. "The Rain falls from the sky. It is the way of things. It falls upon the just and the unjust alike." God doesn't have complete control of every second in every persons life. Every single person in this world is gifted with a free will. The combinations of decisions lead to pleasant or unpleasant ends. The deciding factors of the paths ends are the choices we make every second of every day as a collective whole. One can never be 100% sure when paths will cross, with what or whom, or the results. Not even whether our path will continue from that point.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Silver Cheetah: quote: Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk: One thing I have read is that religion tends to grow fastest among poorer countries & less well educated ones. As the west becomes more prosperous and better educated, fewer and fewer people continue to place their faith in religion, or turn away from it. In the third world however, where people are Generally poor & ill educated, they are more inclined to believe in religion and also more likely to hold onto their faith because of the terrible conditions they have to endure (religion gives them hope of a better life), and their lack of education. Some studies have claimed to show that there is a correlation between religion and Education & Wealth. With more wealthy and better educated people being less inclined to believe and poorer worse educated people being more likely to follow a religion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't America the only Western country that still has a significant proportion of the population who are practicing Christians? Oops, forget the Irish. The Italians I don't count - I lived there for three years, and basically I've never come across a group of people who so obviously didn't give a stuff about religion. I've never seen an Italian catholic church 'in action', they're always full of tourists lighting candles. Except in Naples. There you don't light a candle, you press a button, and the top of the (electric) candle glows red. Gloriously tacky.[/QUOTE]Depends what you mean by western. The largest church in the world in in Seoul. Asia has the fastest growing Christian Churches.

As far as Italy goes, well yes that's Roman Catholic, what do you expect? There are huge Pentecostal churches in Sydney full of ex-Catholic Italians, conducted in Italian. Very much alive, and incredibly dynamic. Wonderful people full of life and love for God and each other. Revival.

Dramnek there's a simple explaination for what you cited in the west: MONEY. Jesus said you can't worship both God and money. It get's in the way. That's the beauty in suffering. You might actually find God there helping you out, and walk out of the pit with a friend for life.