Evolution

[Moiraine]

Those of you who know me know that I have a passion for paleoanthropology. [img]smile.gif[/img] Well, I have spent most of the week-end buried in two books I bought about the latest discoveries.

I am not starting a debate about the validity of the evolution theory here - although if you want to discuss it here, suit yourselves [img]smile.gif[/img] - but I have a question.

What is it that seems to be so emotionally disturbing to humankind in sharing ancestors with apes ?

I am asking this from sheer curiosity - I can't find in myself any reluctance at all to share my heritage with simians, and although I am an agnostic, I come from a long line of Christians and live in a Christian-rooted culture - yet, all I feel is sheer enthusiasm and excitement.

No matter what I know or don't know about myself - and no matter what I decide or refuse to believe about myself - it doesn't change what I am. [img]smile.gif[/img]

You ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-24-2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: Moiraine ]

Moiraine [img]smile.gif[/img] I have no problem with it at all, Evolution fits in nicely with my Christian beliefs, I do not take Genesis to be a literal story, and believe that God created physical laws for this universe and works his miracles through those laws, not in spite of those laws. Of course I could be burned for heresy in some places

[daan]

Heck, I'd love to be a monkey [img]smile.gif[/img]
Having a tail and being able to climb like crazy seems fun enough to me

I quite dislike Darwin though, he's a twit.
Survival of the strongest .. yeeeeaaa right [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img]

It's based on pure luck if you ask me ( and quite a few newer scientists ), nature has a balance, if you come along and dont fit the equilibrium you can be as tough as you want .. you wont survive.
Its about being in the right place at the right time, not how strong you are.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Moiraine: What is it that seems to be so emotionally disturbing to humankind in sharing ancestors with apes ?

Nothing. I just don't believe it to be the case on the evidence I've seen. [img]smile.gif[/img]

There are things I find psychologicaly beneficial to humans being created as stand-alone, but that is a positive effect, not a negative impetus away from the idea of simian ancestry.

[Masklinn]

Yorick, do you believe in evolution for all of other forms of life on this planet ?

There is no trap in this question. [img]smile.gif[/img]
(not yet )

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

I happen to think that people realy do come from monkeys. Aside from the obvious physical resemblance humans share with primates there are the mental similarities. When they taught Koko the gorrila sighn language she was able to express thoughts and emotions to her human handlers. They werent some disjoined collection of mimicd sighns and random expressions. They were complex ideas that showed self awareness and understanding in a very human way. IMHO the only thing still separateing us from them is speech. We are one of the only things on the planet that comunicates in an almost purely verbal way. This aids innovation and the free exchange of ideas, which facilitates knowledge and growth. As soon as monkeys learn to talk we are screwed because they will evolve into the next rulers of the earth.

[Legolas]

Well, you have to remember that we didn't know that much about monkeys for a long time. The best example is probably King Kong (the 1933 movie). Kong is shown as a large and evil being. This is not because those who made the movie wanted to make a cute gorilla into an evil beast, but rather because that was the general view on gorillas. They were, after all, as tall as a man, dark, and hiding out in the jungle. Their near-human appearance (and sharp teeth), coupled with the fact that they were so rarely seen, let alone studied, led people to view them as the creature in the KK movie (only slighly shorter )
Studying them, we've come to realise they are quite social creatures with whom we share many things. Quite a different way of viewing things than before.
These days, if we want to make a movie about killer apes, they have to have escaped after being genetically altered before we'd 'buy' it.

From a religious point of view, it looks as if Darwinism isn't compatible with beliefs concerning the origin of the world and humankind itself. That means you'd have to disbelieve one, and in that case it's often the Darwinism people just learned about, which 'has to be' wrong.

Personally, I don't see why the two couldn't merge (with a small bit of effort), but then I'm not a religious person.

At the core of the 'emotional disturbance' is the fact that it challenges peoples believes. If someone tells you you should eat green apples rather than the red ones you always have, it's only a tiny ripple. If someone tells you your view on how the world and everything on it came to be may not be correct, that's a tidal wave

Originally posted by daan: I quite dislike Darwin though, he's a twit. Survival of the strongest .. yeeeeaaa right [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img] It's based on pure luck if you ask me ( and quite a few newer scientists ), nature has a balance, if you come along and dont fit the equilibrium you can be as tough as you want .. you wont survive. Its about being in the right place at the right time, not how strong you are.

Wether or not you like or dislike Darwin, you cannot refute survival of the fitest in nature. You can see it quite plainly that the weaker animals die due to disease or predators far more often than stronger more fit animals.

[Spelca]

I'm not disturbed by apes being my ancestors. Why would I? It doesn't really matter what you were, but what you are. And besides, I like monkeys. They're cute. And smart.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by daan: It's based on pure luck if you ask me ( and quite a few newer scientists ), nature has a balance, if you come along and dont fit the equilibrium you can be as tough as you want .. you wont survive. Its about being in the right place at the right time, not how strong you are.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. But having big muscles does help

And Moiraine, in what I have observed so far it would appear that some creationists (ie: those that believe that humankind was created in the image of the divine God) find the idea of shared ancestry and evolution repulsive in that it downplays humankind's uniqueness and importance and as a species. It can deride the notion that humankind is special, created as superior by God to rule over the animal kingdom (a popular reformation-era concept). Evolution suggests that contemporary humankind was sculpted from a series of accidental environmental occurences and selective mating. This derides the notion that the image of the God can be found in the form of humankind. It hints at the idea that humankind is not special. That it was not created to rule. That it is merely an animal itself, rising to dominance through exploitation of opportunity. In essence, merely a luckier-than-average beast. Some, just some, are unable to cope with the apparent lawlessness and lack of meaning in this notion.

[ 02-24-2003, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]