Improved (Current Version Tactics) Bodhi (Spoilers)

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: My characters went from Level 7 to Level 25 in a few weeks (not years BTW), and were able to slay things like Demons and Dragons....

Which would not have been the case in any "normal" D&D setting. Let's face it, BG is a candy store of a game. Whack a few Slavers and collect enough gold to buy a +3 Axe at the local tavern. Use that Axe to kill a few Trolls and collect the Flail of the Ages. Take that Flail and go kill a Dragon that's guarding a weapon that any self-respecting DM wouldn't let fall into the player's hands until they were at least Level 20--which would take years of campaigning, in a game setting that dished out EXP in a reasonable way. In BG1, you had to adventure for weeks before you were capable of killing anything worth more than 1000 EXP. At the start of BG2, you get 3000 just for talking to Minsc, and another 3000 for talking to Jaheira, and the third cage holds Monty Haul.

OK, Link. You can have your wish: normal BG2 Bodhi. No Special Powers. Tactics is 100% optional. OR remove some of her special powers with the difficulty slider -- a feature that even original BG2 didn't offer.

This is true. But wouldn't it be better to create a Bodhi that's as challenging (or even more so) as the current version, yet makes as much sense (or even more so) as her original incarnation?

My "Ideal" Bodhi:

• Does not blatantly disregard the laws of magic
• Does not display nonsensical or contradictory powers or immunities
• Does not wait until you've slaughtered her entire band of followers before she even considers fighting you herself
• Be resistant, but NOT immune, to the swarm of anti-Undead crap flying around
• Knows that she's not going to be able to take you out by herself

My "Ideal" Bodhi would be rather low on hitpoints, but have high resistance to Magic damage--thus shrugging off most of the damage from Sunray, False Dawn, Sol's Searing Orb, etc. This would obviously make her resistant to ADHW as well, but since Undead are dry as dust already, this only makes sense. She would have the standard Boss immunities of Hold, Charm, Death, and also Blindness and Turn Undead. Her Physical resistances would be about 40% to let her still be a formidable melee opponent, and her Claws would heal her of 1D4 damage per hit, taking sustenance from the blood she draws.
Spells: Bodhi and her minions all use Vampriric Touch, and frequently, too. They also cast Chill Touch along with their Domination and Vampire Fear. Bodhi does indeed know spells like Buried Alive and Chill of the Grave, but 'at lower levels' (does less damage and/or allows a Save with higher bonuses) than the high-level Vampire-Mages who guard the lair as well. In this sense, Bodhi's eagerness to acquire new powers has spread to learning the spells of the Archvampires, although she still casts like a Ranger or Paladin while her elder tutors cast them like Clerics and Mages.
Behavior: When she ambushes the party entering the Graveyard in Chapter 6, she's more interested in neutralizing your cheesy weaponry (Azuredge, etc) than stealing your sweetie--although she'll do that, too. Perhaps each weapon could be guarded by a Vampire-Mage, perhaps you'll have to kill Bodhi herself to get them back. Inside her lair, Bodhi and her high-ranking friends annoy the entire party by constantly flapping up to you in Bat form, fighting for 4 rounds, and then going Bat again and flapping off to some other random part of the level. They travel separately, and there's no telling which Bat is which Vampire until they polymorph back. No more sending your Cleric or Tank out to kill everything while the rest of the party plays Parcheesi at the entrance! Each named Vampire must be gotten down to Near Death before they retreat to the lower level, and you must knock them all down there before you can enter there yourself.

Your ideas sound cool. Have you released this as a mod, or it's just speculation on what would be cool if you were in Weimer's shoes?

If/when Link or I ever actually release our ideas in a usable form, trust me, you'll know about it. Until then, I know that at least I will be actively critiquing anything that comes out, handing out kudos, put-downs, and suggestions where they are deserved.

[Assassin]

Hank, the reason why people give critiques to mods is so that they can become better. If every response was 'if you don't like it, uninstall it', then quite a few mods wouldn't have changed beyond their initial state. Which would've been a shame.

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by Assassin: Hank, the reason why people give critiques to mods is so that they can become better. If every response was 'if you don't like it, uninstall it', then quite a few mods wouldn't have changed beyond their initial state. Which would've been a shame.

I only issue that response to people whose ideas appear NOT to make the mod better, but rather to diminish the power of Tactics enemies in order to make this mod as easy as these people expect it to be. For example the dude with the idea that Bodhi is a normal vampire who should not have special powers: this person obviously should not install Tactics. Rather than having this person tell Weimer to nerf Tactics, this person should nerf their own game back to normal BG2. Such people are not really debating the specific methods of Tactics, they are actually arguing against the very point of Tactics, the reason for this mod (which is: to increase the challenge of battles for vetern players). My point? If you don't want the game to be this hard, then don't install this mod. Find a different mod whose point is not to make the game this difficult.

If you're offering ideas to make it better -- like SixOfSpades -- then more power to you. I may not agree with everything, but I respect anyone's ideas for improving this mod.

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: My "Ideal" Bodhi: 1 Does not blatantly disregard the laws of magic 2 Does not display nonsensical or contradictory powers or immunities 3 Does not wait until you've slaughtered her entire band of followers before she even considers fighting you herself 4 Be resistant, but NOT immune, to the swarm of anti-Undead crap flying around 5 Knows that she's not going to be able to take you out by herself

Six, you throw so much stuff out there, it is tricky to respond to each point.

(1 & 2) Blatent disregard for laws of magic... (Response applies to the Fish Priestess, Imp. Bodhi, The Ritual, and probably others). When you see this, it's not always arcane magic, like you probably think at first. Because of the limitations of BG in spell animations, these effects appear identical to spells you know. But in many cases, it's not a spellcasting of arcane magic, but rather it is a fact-of-life with this enemy. What you could call an "inate power" except that term already is defined in BG2 as the inate abilities, and this is different from that also. It's nature, it's part of their body or their natural abilities. In some cases such abilities appear to come from the enemy (Bodhi, Faldorn) but actually come from the venue, the room, the lair -- you hav to use your imagination a bit. For example, can't the Fish Priestess emit a Zone Of Sweet Air with no casting time? She's not casting a spell, she's whooshing this ability out of her blessed fish gills. It's as easy as breathing, for her. Weimer has clearly explained in the ReadMe, and sufficiently justified, why Imp. Bodhi would have numerous powers which are not actually spells, and hence are not limited like arcane magic-users. Instead, these are abilities granted only to a supreme vampire. Such abilities are never accessable for the PC's, and I think that is what frustrates some people calling for "fairness", but no one said life-or-death battles should be equally matched. They're not equal in Iraq, they're not in a dark alley in New York, and this is not the Olympics. This is more like real D&D: you cannot fathom what powers the monster has, just because you read the Monster Manual when your DM wasn't looking, and when the DM finds out he is very likely to throw some unexpected new powers at you. This is justified because it is a Named enemy, therefore a unique; not necessarily bound to the same powers as others of that class. With imagination, this is what is fun about tactical battles in flexible RPG's.

(4) There is no way to make her partially immune to Undead-killing abilities (AFIK). It's either all or nothing. Any item which causes a Saving Throw (Azuredge, Mace of Disruption), is a 1/20 chance AT WORST/BEST. There is no way to penalize this beyond a 5% chance of instant-death. With 1-in-20 rolls, there is always at least a chance of failure on a 1 (just like you can always hit someone with a roll of 20, even if their AC is -20 and your THACO is 10). It makes absolutely no sense (to me) for Bodhi to have a 1/20 chance of dying from you throwing an axe you found when you were a 10th level newbie. Sunray is equally ludicrous -- if Bodhi can die to 2 Sunray's, then why didn't a priest of Lathander kill her a long time ago? In my opinion, this point is settled and done: Imp. Bodhi IS, and should be, immune to Undead-killing abilities. This is only a meager start in making her somewhat defenseable. To do otherwise would be a joke for experienced players (like normal BG2 was).

[Assassin]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: (4) There is no way to make her partially immune to Undead-killing abilities (AFIK). It's either all or nothing. Any item which causes a Saving Throw (Azuredge, Mace of Disruption), is a 1/20 chance AT WORST/BEST. There is no way to penalize this beyond a 5% chance of instant-death. With 1-in-20 rolls, there is always at least a chance of failure on a 1 (just like you can always hit someone with a roll of 20, even if their AC is -20 and your THACO is 10). It makes absolutely no sense (to me) for Bodhi to have a 1/20 chance of dying from you throwing an axe you found when you were a 10th level newbie. Sunray is equally ludicrous -- if Bodhi can die to 2 Sunray's, then why didn't a priest of Lathander kill her a long time ago? In my opinion, this point is settled and done: Imp. Bodhi IS, and should be, immune to Undead-killing abilities. This is only a meager start in making her somewhat defenseable. To do otherwise would be a joke for experienced players (like normal BG2 was).

And why not make Imp Bodhi's saves so low that it is an impossibility to ever fail a death save? I mean, it is possible to never fail a save. I myself have pushed my fighter's saves so low whenever I face a Lich or the like so that they're resistant to almost every spell in the book. It's also a sort of equaliser; Your fighter's saves are probably also so low that it's very, very unlikely that they'll fail a save versus anything. However, then we get to Greater Malison. Is -8 too low a save? Or is a better solution to make her immune to Greater Malison?

There also is a line that must be drawn between balancing out the game and simply being ridiculous with the realms of possibility. That is the reason why people argue against Tactics.

[ 08-24-2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[JayS]

Originally posted by Assassin: And why not make Imp Bodhi's saves so low that it is an impossibility to ever fail a death save?

That cannot be done.

In this thread ( http://forums.forgottenwars.net/inde...showtopic=8179 ) I learned there is always a chance of failure for saving throws, just like there is always a chance of a critical miss.

Edit: Nevermind

[ 08-25-2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: JayS ]

[Assassin]

[img]redface.gif[/img] I have made saves at 1. Judging by the fact that it is a 1d20 roll, if I can make a save at 1, then I should be unable to ever not make a save.

ADD] The thread you referenced me to does not demonstrate someone failing their save if that particular save is below 0. There is also some doubt as to the accuracy of 1 always failing a save.

I just tested this. I put down my Assassin's save to 0. Then, I kept on throwing Chromatic Orbs at the guy. If he makes a save at 7 (roll of 1 with the +6 of the spell) without dying, then it is possible to push your saves low enough so that you continually make your save even with a roll of 1. I have the screenshot of him making that save, but unfortunately, I don't have any picture hosting. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 08-24-2004, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by Assassin: And why not make Imp Bodhi's saves so low that it is an impossibility to ever fail a death save? I mean, it is possible to never fail a save....Is -8 too low a save? Or is a better solution to make her immune to Greater Malison?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on ANY saving throw roll, if you roll a natural 1, you fail the save. There is a 5% (1 in 20) chance of failing a save. At least that's how it is in AD&D 2E, and AFIK in this game.

Even if that's not properly implemented in the game, there is the anecdotal evidence: we've all slayed undeads in 1 hit with Azuredge, MoD, etc. They tend to fail their saves on occasion (on the first hit, surprisingly often).

Tactics has simply and effectively prevented Imp Bodhi from rolling saving throws against weapons that target Undeads for death saves (Azuredge, Mace of Disruption; spells: Sun Ray, False Dawn). Nothing wrong with that - it's a smart way for a Dungeon Master to bend the rules in a way that enhances the tactical combat. In other words it prevents her from dying in 1 hit. It makes her immune to 5%-chance-of-death with this axe-I-found-laying-around. I don't want wimp Bodhi like that, it was absurd (in unmodded BG2). The same should be insituted for liches. Far too many have fallen to Azuredge in one hit.

[ 08-25-2004, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[chimaera]

Well, some people like overpowered, cheating enemies outside the realm of possibility [img]graemlins/firedevil.gif[/img]

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by chimaera: Well, some people like ...powered... enemies ... [img]graemlins/firedevil.gif[/img]

Some like it hot.