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Old 04-26-2002, 01:11 PM   #61
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Michael:
Magik --

I'm a little confused, then. How do you define faith? The way I define it is as a belief system. You in believe in God, and express that belief through your religion. I believe in science, and express that belief through my work. Like I said, I have to have faith in what other scientists tell me are the inner workings of the unverse, because I will never see them for myself. You believe in the Bible and what it teaches you about the Universe. Just different belief systems is all.
Ok, Ill try to explain here. "Faith" is the belief in something that you cannot see, touch, taste, or hear, something you cannot prove through physical means. Science is all about proof and physicality. You may believe other scientists when they tell you things that you havent verified, however that is nto in my view "faith" because if you so desired and had the will you could go and check the results of their experiments....there is a physical way to verify what they have told you. In a fiath based belief system, you have to just take the ideas....errr ...on faith [img]smile.gif[/img] there is no way for you to prove experimentally what you believe. Someone wrote once that if you take away uncertainty, you also remove faith.

Hope that helps ya understand on where I am coming from.
 
Old 04-26-2002, 01:13 PM   #62
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thoran:
quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Well knowing that scientists are as political and egotistical as every other group of humans are, I think that this is more a limitation of humans than of science [img]smile.gif[/img] ....I don't know a whole lot of scientists personally but I do know a few...they in general are an oddd lot
LOL... you can say that again! I was watching Star Wars ESB yesterday with a couple friends (Engineers, Scientists) and we spent literally 10 minutes arguing about the design of Boba Fett's spaceship. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE] Been there done that
 
Old 04-26-2002, 01:20 PM   #63
MagiK
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Originally posted by Sir Michael:
The rain forest will come back (slowly), but what about all of the plant and animal species that were lost when it was originally destroyed? A good example was the movie "Medicine Man," where Sean Connery played a doctor in the rain forest who found a cure for cancer, but it was too late...the habitat for the species was already destroyed by exploiters. It was fictional, but brought up a valid point. Humanity destroys many species every year. Who knows if they may have provided a cure for cancer, or some other human ailment? The rain forest and its remaining species may move back, but what was lost can never be regained.

Incidentally, just because something looks okay, doesn't mean it is. I just watched a documentary on PBS about the Hudson river, where GE tried to avoid having to pay to clean it up, because they said that because of conservation efforts, the river was cleaning itself up. The fish were coming back, and the water was clear, and everything did appear to be okay for a while. Then the tested the fish and found them to be loaded with PCBs, a human carcinogen, and a very dangeous chemical. The fisherman on the river were ruined, because nobody could eat the fish. The river was named a Superfund site, and GE was forced to clean it up by dredging. Most organic chemicals are colorless, BTW, so the water could be, say, loaded with benzene and you wouldn't know it. The water in the pool in your back yard is clear...do you want to drink it? Or eat a fish that has been swimming in it?
A valid point, but in nature when a species is so specialized that it cannot adapt to variations in its surroundings (spotted owl anyone?) those species are short lived any way and would perish the next time a natural disaster destroyed the only 10 square kilometer that they could survive in.

About the chemical dumping in fresh water, I agree it is a terrible thing to do and is being policed. However I do recall the hysteria over Love Canal where the "horrorss of Dioxin" were revealed to the public, the whole eastern seaboard was feared to be in jeopardy from this disgusting corporations dumping practices....and I totaly agree with the fact that it needs to be stopped, however I was mortified to find out that the eco-scientists fanning the flames had vastly over stated the dangers of Dioxin....it turned out to be an "ends Justifys the Means" descision on their part...they wanted publicity and the only way to get it was to lie about the figures....I hate scientists who lie about the science...its similar but not quite on the same level of priests abusing their position to abuse children. Dammit!!! do good science, and let the facts speak for them selves, quit inflating the numbers, quit exagerating the results....sorry got off on a rant about one of my pet peeves.
 
Old 04-26-2002, 01:25 PM   #64
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigmar:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Michael:
The rain forest will come back (slowly), but what about all of the plant and animal species that were lost when it was originally destroyed? A good example was the movie "Medicine Man," where Sean Connery played a doctor in the rain forest who found a cure for cancer, but it was too late...the habitat for the species was already destroyed by exploiters. It was fictional, but brought up a valid point. Humanity destroys many species every year. Who knows if they may have provided a cure for cancer, or some other human ailment? The rain forest and its remaining species may move back, but what was lost can never be regained.

Incidentally, just because something looks okay, doesn't mean it is. I just watched a documentary on PBS about the Hudson river, where GE tried to avoid having to pay to clean it up, because they said that because of conservation efforts, the river was cleaning itself up. The fish were coming back, and the water was clear, and everything did appear to be okay for a while. Then the tested the fish and found them to be loaded with PCBs, a human carcinogen, and a very dangeous chemical. The fisherman on the river were ruined, because nobody could eat the fish. The river was named a Superfund site, and GE was forced to clean it up by dredging. Most organic chemicals are colorless, BTW, so the water could be, say, loaded with benzene and you wouldn't know it. The water in the pool in your back yard is clear...do you want to drink it? Or eat a fish that has been swimming in it?
Man is basically making life harder for itself in the long run. But that's what humanity has always been about in my opinion, concentrating on the present and not the future. How they can make NOW better, not the world that our children are going to live in.[/QUOTE]As a parent, and speaking for parents that I know in my personal life (in evil vile corporations) I disagree with you. We all think about what kind of place we are making for our children, it is constantly in my mind and thiers. Holywood does a good job of painting any corporation as being staffed by vile uncaring evil villians...but that is rarely the case. Just because not all of us have jumpped ont he vegen, anti-SUV, save the rainforest, green movement doesnt mean we stand for raping and pillaging the environment either.
 
Old 04-26-2002, 01:33 PM   #65
Alexander
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Goulum:
Well when I look at it that way I see your point. But I still don't understand, if s/he even exists, why s/he doesn't even try the least little bit to help us? I mean with all the untreatable diseases like cancer, s/he could at least take away someof them from existence!
Let's take a look at some of the help God HAS given us:

1) Bubonic plague - Killed untold thousands in the Middle Ages. It IS non-existent today.
2) Polio - A rampant disease that either killed or crippled thousands in the early 1900's. Again, basically non-existent.
3) Scarlet Fever - Not quite as severe as the other two, but was still extremely deadly in the early 1900's. Once again, it is very rare now.

4) MOST forms of cancer ARE now treatable....and some are even curable. Mario Lemieu overcame his bout with leukemia. So did a co-worker of mine and the son of a good friend.

5) SEVERAL diseases that WERE killers before are now very treatable. I personally have Crohn's Disease. An incurable disease that potentially can (and in my case - HAS) been life-threatening. However, with medication, it is rarely more than an inconvenience most of the time.

God has consistently given Mankind the knowledge and technology to improve our standard-of-living conditions. Diseases that use to slaughter thousands of people every year are now curable with one shot from the doctor.

Never fear, Sir Goulum, God IS on the job.
[/QB][/QUOTE]All of the diseases you mentioned ARE still present - however, they are most prevalent in poorer African and Asian countries, so you probably don't see the effects.

If God gave us the technology, why didn't he give it to everyone? Why pick and choose? Are we supposed to believe that he is merciful and great because the Western world no longer has to deal with diseases that still afflict millions in Africa and Asia (where Christianity is growing faster than anywhere else)?

The way I see it, it really doesn't matter is there is a God. If there isn't, well, then all the wars and massacres that took place in his name were for naught, and if by some random chance there is an afterlife but no God, we can all have a good laugh at one of the biggest hoaxes on the planet.

If there is a God, then he evidently does not care enough about us to make his presence known and clear up this issue, therefore I will reciprocate by not caring about him.

I used to be an avid Christian, but through the years I learned that many of God's "followers" were plain hypocrites who twisted his word to satisfy themselves, and who used Christianity as an excuse to bash homosexuals and condemn them all to hell. If that's what our God is like, then I'll opt for Satan, thanks. From all I've heard and seen about God, he's either not omnipotent (and therefore not perfect), or he's pretty picky about who he helps, in which case I think he is an asshole.

It's funny how Christianity nowadays is the fastest-shrinking faith, and Islam is the fastest-growing, second only to Atheism (if you can call that a faith). In fact, if it hasn't already, I believe Atheism will replace Christianity as the world's main faith in a year or two.
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Old 04-26-2002, 02:16 PM   #66
Dramnek_Ulk
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[quote]Originally posted by Alexander:
[QB
Quote:
All of the diseases you mentioned ARE still present - however, they are most prevalent in poorer African and Asian countries, so you probably don't see the effects.

If God gave us the technology, why didn't he give it to everyone? Why pick and choose? Are we supposed to believe that he is merciful and great because the Western world no longer has to deal with diseases that still afflict millions in Africa and Asia (where Christianity is growing faster than anywhere else)?

The way I see it, it really doesn't matter is there is a God. If there isn't, well, then all the wars and massacres that took place in his name were for naught, and if by some random chance there is an afterlife but no God, we can all have a good laugh at one of the biggest hoaxes on the planet.

If there is a God, then he evidently does not care enough about us to make his presence known and clear up this issue, therefore I will reciprocate by not caring about him.

I used to be an avid Christian, but through the years I learned that many of God's "followers" were plain hypocrites who twisted his word to satisfy themselves, and who used Christianity as an excuse to bash homosexuals and condemn them all to hell. If that's what our God is like, then I'll opt for Satan, thanks. From all I've heard and seen about God, he's either not omnipotent (and therefore not perfect), or he's pretty picky about who he helps, in which case I think he is an asshole.

It's funny how Christianity nowadays is the fastest-shrinking faith, and Islam is the fastest-growing, second only to Atheism (if you can call that a faith). In fact, if it hasn't already, I believe Atheism will replace Christianity as the world's main faith in a year or two.[/QB]
One thing I have read is that religion tends to grow fastest among poorer countries & less well educated ones.
As the west becomes more prosperous and better educated, fewer and fewer people continue to place their faith in religion, or turn away from it.
In the third world however, where people are Generally poor & ill educated, they are more inclined to believe in religion and also more likely to hold onto their faith because of the terrible conditions they have to endure (religion gives them hope of a better life), and their lack of education.
Some studies have claimed to show that there is a correlation between religion and Education & Wealth. With more wealthy and better educated people being less inclined to believe and poorer worse educated people being more likely to follow a religion.
 
Old 04-26-2002, 02:35 PM   #67
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


To me it doesn't matter whether God is male or female, neither or both. He chose for whatever reason, to identify himself as a Father, and that's good enough for me.
Why would God manifest himself to humans as either male or female? (f he knew anything at all about the beings he created, he would have had more sense, realising that whatever he showed up as, that sex would henceforth grab the power, on the basis they were the same sex as god, and therefore superior. Nah. I think it's a lot more likely that he showed up as just 'god', and the peeps he showed up to decided that they'd perceive him as male, basically because it suited their purposes at the time.
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Old 04-26-2002, 02:50 PM   #68
Silver Cheetah
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
One thing I have read is that religion tends to grow fastest among poorer countries & less well educated ones.
As the west becomes more prosperous and better educated, fewer and fewer people continue to place their faith in religion, or turn away from it.
In the third world however, where people are Generally poor & ill educated, they are more inclined to believe in religion and also more likely to hold onto their faith because of the terrible conditions they have to endure (religion gives them hope of a better life), and their lack of education.
Some studies have claimed to show that there is a correlation between religion and Education & Wealth. With more wealthy and better educated people being less inclined to believe and poorer worse educated people being more likely to follow a religion.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't America the only Western country that still has a significant proportion of the population who are practicing Christians? Oops, forget the Irish. The Italians I don't count - I lived there for three years, and basically I've never come across a group of people who so obviously didn't give a stuff about religion. I've never seen an Italian catholic church 'in action', they're always full of tourists lighting candles. Except in Naples. There you don't light a candle, you press a button, and the top of the (electric) candle glows red. Gloriously tacky.

[ 04-26-2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Silver Cheetah ]
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Old 04-26-2002, 03:20 PM   #69
MagiK
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[quote]Originally posted by Dramnek_Ulk:
Quote:
One thing I have read is that religion tends to grow fastest among poorer countries & less well educated ones.
As the west becomes more prosperous and better educated, fewer and fewer people continue to place their faith in religion, or turn away from it.
.
Have you ever been to California? I've never seen so many "religions" spring up in a years time in my life....of course they are short lived and are usually related to drugs or sex or both...but that place is far from poor. [img]smile.gif[/img]
 
Old 04-26-2002, 03:28 PM   #70
MagiK
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[quote]Originally posted by Alexander:
Quote:
If God gave us the technology, why didn't he give it to everyone? Why pick and choose? Are we supposed to believe that he is merciful and great because the Western world no longer has to deal with diseases that still afflict millions in Africa and Asia (where Christianity is growing faster than anywhere else)?
.
God didn't give us the technology, he gave us the ability to develop the technology...why didn't everyone get the technology? because they didn't choose the right path to develop their gifts. Some cultures didn't grow due to poor choice in living areas, some made poor choices in the style of society they developed. Those that HAVE the technology have it because they got lucky (or were divinely inspired) or made the right choices. All of life is about choices. China for a while was the leading technology developer in the world, they squandered that lead by adopting policies and governments that did not allow the individual to flourish and grow and contribute, instead they chose to put little value on the individual and focus on the commune....and it didnt go anywhere for a loooooong time.....

Yeah thats all an over simplification but I think it gets the idea accross.

Ohh and Wars seemed to help too, apparently for whatever reason WAR more than any other human endeaveor seems to inspire the fastest advances in technology...at least in white european types any way, the tribes in Africa warred for millenia but never seemed to progress.
 
 


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