Improved (Current Version Tactics) Bodhi (Spoilers)

[chimaera]

Dundee, SixOfSpades, as far as I know it's not the spell level (contrary to what the game says) which decides whether a spell effect goes through a spell protection or not. The (Minor) Globe should not work.

[Dundee Slaytern]

?? It is. If you have Near Infinity, or some similar editing tool, you can read how such defensive spells work, code-wise.

[chimaera]

I admit being not even proficient with NI [img]tongue.gif[/img] , but to every spell effect there is a an additional parameter - power. Cloud of bats is level 0, but its effects have a power of 7, Kangaxx imprisonment is level 1, but the slay effect has a power of 9.

[Dundee Slaytern]

My memory is hazy on this one, but I recalled a thread where a player commented on his MGoI blocking Kangaxx's Imprisonments. I have not gotten around to testing it out myself though.

[JayS]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: To say that Boss Enemy of type R should be immune to magics that are supposed (even designed) to work against all enemies of type R makes no sense. The Boss should be tougher than his/her minions, sure, perhaps more resistant to Anti-R techniques, but immune to them entirely? In short, if Bodhi is supposed to be Undead, let her bloody well be Undead! None this ■■■■■-footing around because Weimer doesn't think the chick is tough enough. Where Weimer made her immune to False Dawn, I would simply make her immune to Confusion. Where he made her immune to Sunray, I would simply have her drink a Potion of Magic Shielding, so she's guaranteed to make her Save against it.

But it it possible to have her count as undead on some counts and non-undead on others? Undead not get saves against Sunrays damage, so Bodhi would be taking 20d6 damage from it with no chance of defending against it. 2 Sunrays could finish off Bodhi. Undead-Slaying weapons would still have a 1/20 chance of slaying Bodhi, despite a PMS (which lowers saves to -20). Repulse Undead and possibly Turn Undead still make her run away in fear. SSS would be doing 9d6 damage and blindness for 6 rounds, if Bodhi made her save. Instead of implementing anti-Undead resistence, it is much easier to just make Bodhi count as non-undead.

Her having attacks that cannot be defended against

What are these attacks that cannot be defended against? The only one I can think off is cloud of bats, which is just as silly as not being able to kill off a vampire bat, or not being able to cast sunfire to kill off insects. Maybe all those vampire bats grouped together and are now attacking you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Link: Anyways: look at who Bodhi is. We meet Jonoleth Irenicus and his sister Bodhi. AFter trying to steal the essence of the Tree of Life, both elves are to be banished from Suldanesselar facing the gravest punishment of all: they are to be left soulless. Bodhi finds a way to fill that gap by becoming a vampire, nothing more nothing less. This means that she shouldn't have any special vampiric powers! Storywise, Bodhi is just another elven vampire! Her brother, Jonoleth Irenicus walks another path to fill the aching gap within his body. As a potent mage already (which Bodhi is NOT!) in his elven time, he increases his power, and sets up a plan to once again try and devour the essence of the Tree of Life. For that, he needs a soul, and for a power-hungry elf like Irenicus, that means a potent soul, a strong soul. So who does he choose? He chooses the protagonist of our story because he has Bhaal-essence in him. And why is Irenicus so powerful with this soul? Because he was a 29th level archmage already! Nothing new for you, I hope.

The storyline leaves out a lot of blanks of Bodhi's past and history, just a Irenicus was a potent archmage, maybe Bodhi was a potent fighter?

Bhaal essence does not give you super-anti-vampiric powers! For christ's sake, Bodhi owns the powers for like maybe one and a half weeks! It took the player years to control his powers, let alone attain special powers like the ones in the special ability button.

How do you know this? Maybe Bodhi has been a vampire for years, there is no detailed in-game history of Bodhi as a vampire. That allows for a lot of flexibility considering Bodhi's powers.

Besides, I find CHARNAME way more silly than Bodhi. Bodhi history is left out, you directly control CHARNAME, who can attain legendary levels on his own in about 1-2 weeks.

Edit: If you're talking about after gaining a soul, then Bodhi could just have not used those abilities when fighting you earlier because (for example) she didn't think you were a big enough threat.

[ 08-23-2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: JayS ]

[chimaera]

Dundee, it's easy to test. If you raise a power of a spell effect to 10, it should go through spell trap (it can be done in NI).


...I always tend to complicate things... HLDEMI is Kangaxx demilich form code, can be CLUAConsoled in and tested.

[ 08-23-2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: chimaera ]

[Assassin]

I just looked into NI. It appears to be a carbon copy of Imprisonment, but with range. Therefore, it should go through MGoI.

However, I have read somehwere about someone using a solo character whose Shield of the Archons lasted for longer than 2 Imprisonments...

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by Link: Bodhi finds a way to fill that gap by becoming a vampire, nothing more nothing less. This means that she shouldn't have any special vampiric powers! Storywise, Bodhi is just another elven vampire! ... In short: Bodhi may be a vampire boss, there is no justification for her to have any SPECIAL powers. If Weimer wants Bodhi to be harder, he should have done a different thing to her than give her weird powers such as Cloud of Bats. Make her turn into a bat when she gets injured for instance...

OK, Link. You can have your wish: normal BG2 Bodhi. No Special Powers. Tactics is 100% optional. OR remove some of her special powers with the difficulty slider -- a feature that even original BG2 didn't offer.

Your ideas sound cool. Have you released this as a mod, or it's just speculation on what would be cool if you were in Weimer's shoes?

It would be disinginuous if someone said the BG2 story "must" follow some rigid standard of play (you MUST be Lawful, you MUST play a Human Fighter, Vampires MUST be pansies, Bodhi MUST be easier than Irenicus, etc. -- sounds absurd doesn't it?). Surely you can imagine that if your Bodhi is a normal vamp with no powers -- that is fine, enjoy it. Pehaps the Bodhi of my game world is extremely powerful. Tactics gives me this option, and it's equally optional for you.

My characters went from Level 7 to Level 25 in a few weeks (not years BTW), and were able to slay things like Demons and Dragons before we faced our 2nd toughest foe up to that point in the game: Chapter 6 Improved Bodhi! A truly epic moment. I really enjoyed that (after the first few reloads).

Have fun gaming.

[ 08-23-2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by JayS: But it it possible to have her count as undead on some counts and non-undead on others? Undead not get saves against Sunrays damage, so Bodhi would be taking 20d6 damage from it with no chance of defending against it. 2 Sunrays could finish off Bodhi. Undead-Slaying weapons would still have a 1/20 chance of slaying Bodhi, despite a PMS (which lowers saves to -20). Repulse Undead and possibly Turn Undead still make her run away in fear. SSS would be doing 9d6 damage and blindness for 6 rounds, if Bodhi made her save. Instead of implementing anti-Undead resistence, it is much easier to just make Bodhi count as non-undead.

Yes, having Bodhi count as non-Undead is much, much easier, which is why Weimer did it that way. I, on the other hand, would work to diminish the number and power of the various anti-Undead stuff (Azuredge, Daystar, and MoD in particular) that BioWare crammed into the game to make absolutely certain that new players wouldn't get bogged down against Bodhi. Seriously, Undead critters seriously got the short end of the stick in the original game, and it makes a heck of a lot more sense to me to down the Unti-Undead stuff down instead of cranking Bodhi and Undead up to compensate for it.

What are these attacks that cannot be defended against? The only one I can think off is cloud of bats....

Even one spell that violates the laws of magic is enough to make the creature that casts it illegal. The only other spells in the game that are not part of at least 1 School of magic are the ToB HLA spells, and all of those can be blocked by other methods (Dragon's Breath by Fire Resistance, Energy Blades by PfMW, etc....). Well, okay, you can't exactly block Improved Alacrity, but at least the enemies use it too.

The storyline leaves out a lot of blanks of Bodhi's past and history, just a Irenicus was a potent archmage, maybe Bodhi was a potent fighter?

Quite possible, especially considering that in the original game, melee combat was all that Bodhi did. I will tie this into my "If I Designed Improved Bodhi" idea later on.

How do you know this [that it took the PC years to develop any special abilities from the Bhaal essence]? Maybe Bodhi has been a vampire for years, there is no detailed in-game history of Bodhi as a vampire. That allows for a lot of flexibility considering Bodhi's powers.

If we are to judge by everybody's [Irenicus's, Bodhi's, Saemon's, Yoshimo's] verbal reactions to your continued longevity after Jon steals your soul, you would appear to have about a tenday or so to live. That Jon himself expects you to topple over within the week is particularly telling. From this data, we may infer that Jon and Bodhi suffered similar physical consequences from having their souls stripped, and therefore must have acted within a similar timespan. Now, I don't mean to say that they must have angered the Seldarine a tenday ago at most--there are, of course, extenuating circumstances. Bodhi survived without a soul through Undeath (obviously), while Jon apparently sustained himself through sheer dedication, ambition, and overdeveloped sense of vengeance ("It's going to get you into trouble someday...."). Considering these factors, I estimate that at the start of the game, it has been no more than a year or so since Brother and Sister first attacked the Tree of Life. This means that Bodhi can have been a Vampire for no more than one year--which, in turn, means that she's hardly any more than a Fledgling Vampire herself.
But if that's the case, then Bodhi must be incredibly weak, which hardly befits a boss enemy of her stature and reputation. The game is at odds with itself on this issue, that's neither your fault nor mine. One way to overcome this dilemma is as follows: When the Seldarine stripped Jon & Bodhi of everything Elven, it is mentioned that they became Human. A curious outcome (and well remarked-upon by Kelsey), and with important results; Humans are ridiculed by the other races for their ridiculously short lifespans, yet are quietly envied for they way they make up for it with their drive, ambition, and willpower. Humans build empires, explore continents, develop new spells, etc., faster than any other race--and since the Elven credo is pretty much diametrically opposed to that sense of manifest destiny, Jon and Bodhi must have felt quite a rush of new determination. With that long-winded explanation behind us, we may conclude that Bodhi gains levels really quickly, and after "regaining her Elven Fighter levels," sets her sights on taking out the Shadowmaster of Athkatla--a pursuit which would guarantee her lots of kills and thus even more EXP....thus, finally, making her a brute-force melee fighter worthy of being a tough Chapter 6 boss.
[ADD:]Adding to her strange "Human" characteristics is the acquisition of the soul of a Human Bhaalspawn, which we might assume will intensify Bodhi's driving will. Some traces of Imoen's soul are already visible in Chap. 6 Bodhi: Where Imoen is one of the few Bhaalspawn who can survive being killed, Bodhi's grip is similarly tenacious: "No! It's mine! This life is mine!" Weimer might give her other traces of Imoen in the ability to cast (cast!) minor Wizard spells.

Besides, I find CHARNAME way more silly than Bodhi. Bodhi history is left out, you directly control CHARNAME, who can attain legendary levels on his own in about 1-2 weeks.

See above.

[ 08-24-2004, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

[Link]

It's not a rant against Tactics, Hank, it's just my opinion on how the powers don't fit in storywise [this was my original complaint as well; just browse back through the topic].

Bodhi being a potent fighter could be justifyable; if memory serves, Jonoleth was lured into the hunger for power by his sister (as was told by Ellesime, I thought). Bodhi must be influencial, that's for sure, but immensely powerful? I always understood her influence as a brother-sister relationship, not something like "strong fighting sister has influence over her weaker mage-brother".

Mind you, I merely judge my image of Tactics Bodhi on the stories I hear, I haven't even tried Tactics yet, so in truth I shouldn't be throwing in my opinion after all. The only justification I have for doing so after all, is that I don't understand Weimer's method of making a fight tougher. My options (in the previous post) sound (IMHO) much more valid and challenging. Maybe this topic could be used for devising a new version of Bodhi for the next Tactics [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-24-2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Link ]