Unfreedom of speech

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: Also, why are all these activities by the government on monitoring groups, etc., construed as denying or forbidding them? The second amendment says that you may say what you like, but not that you can do it anywhere that you please.

Hey Attalus - I hate to be picky and I may well be wrong. But isn't the second amendment the one that gives you the right to shoot people? [/QUOTE] LOL geez some times I wish it did say I could shoot people [img]smile.gif[/img] I think he ment the 1st.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Donut: Hey Attalus - I hate to be picky and I may well be wrong. But isn't the second amendment the one that gives you the right to shoot people?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

That was great, Donut! {wipes tears from eyes}

Actually, it gives us the right to "bear arms" (ie, private citizens can carry weapons legally).

It's the OTHER person that determines whether the weapon gets used or not.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by K T Ong: As for policemen in the West never going around and beating up innocents: well, I've never been to the West myself -- apart from Adelaide, which is just a tiny bit of the West -- so, sorry, I'm not going to take your word for it until I see it for myself. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

In all fairness, K.T., I have to go along with the Magik man again.

There have been documented cases of police brutality. The most obvious example was the Rodney King beating back in the early 90's. There have been other, less publicized, accounts of policemen being videotaped while using "excessive force" (sometimes the video came from the cameras in their own cars). I saw a program that addressed this issue a few years ago. It was aired because "Real Cop Shows" have become a very popular genre of TV programming over here in the States. The program I saw show unedited footage of some clips that had been televised. While it didn't happen often, there were some cases of police officers hitting or kicking suspects after they had been subdued. This was addressed by a police psychologist.

He explained that this behavior most often occurs after the police have had to chase a suspect, either on foot or (more often) by car. During the chase, the officers adrenaline rises. So does his/her stress and anger. They start following a thought process that says "How DARE they run from me?. I am a legal representative or our law enforcement, and they should recognize and RESPECT my authority." When a suspect runs from officers, and endangers others in the process, the officer can subconsciously view that as disrespect for their authority. Once they catch the suspect, the anger over that disrespect can "boil over". Police departments recognize this can happen, so most of them require their officers to attend classes on how to deal with this as part of their training ahead of time. Doesn't mean the officer still won't "lose their cool", but hopefully it will lessen the number of times it happens.

To back up something else Magik mentioned, there was recently another incident involving the LAPD "beating" a young, black suspect that was accused of robbing a convenience store. Again, an innocent bystander "filmed" the incident in which officers picked the boy up and slammed him down against the trunk of their squad car while he was handcuffed.

What the video DID NOT show, was the fight the kid had given the officers prior to his being handcuffed. The officer that shoved him against the car had a cut above his ear where the kid had hit him. Officials also said that the boy grabbed the same officer in the groin AFTER he was handcuffed, and THAT was when the officer shoved him against the car.

This incident was much different than the Rodney King episode. As soon as the officer shoved the kid, his buddies stepped in between them and the forced the officer to "walk away" so he could cool down. This was a perfect example of the type of incident I described above. The kid had struggled with the police and even injured them, and the policeman lost his temper (albeit for only a brief moment). But - of course - the media played it as if the kid were completely innocent.

The only other thing I want to point out is that, to the best of my knowledge, NONE of the people who have made accusations about unwarranted police brutality have a job where they face a VERY REAL chance of being KILLED every single time they go to work!!!!

That certainly doesn't excuse behavior such as what happened to Rodney King, but - as the saying goes - "Do not criticize your brother until you have walked a mile in his shoes."

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Donut: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: Also, why are all these activities by the government on monitoring groups, etc., construed as denying or forbidding them? The second amendment says that you may say what you like, but not that you can do it anywhere that you please.

Hey Attalus - I hate to be picky and I may well be wrong. But isn't the second amendment the one that gives you the right to shoot people? [/QUOTE]I don't recall having the "RIGHT TO SHOOT PEOPLE" being in the constitution. Here's what it says.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed

I don't read that anywhere in here. Sorry.

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: I don't recall having the "RIGHT TO SHOOT PEOPLE" being in the constitution. Here's what it says. Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed I don't read that anywhere in here. Sorry.

I think it was a joke [img]smile.gif[/img] it was very funny when I read it [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: I don't recall having the "RIGHT TO SHOOT PEOPLE" being in the constitution. Here's what it says. Amendment II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed I don't read that anywhere in here. Sorry.

I think it was a joke [img]smile.gif[/img] it was very funny when I read it [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Oh... Sorry Donut. Didn't realize that was a funny.

Originally posted by MagiK: In some countries I admit the police are a terror inspiring organization but in the west, the police don't just go around beating "innocent" people who are just standing around minding their own business, usually the people we are reporting this are just trying to justify their own bad acts, at least in my experience this is the case. There are no absolutes however and exceptions do occur.

Yes, exceptions do occur. I am living proof and I have the scars, the criminal record and the "off the record" testimony of a witness to prove it.
The reason I say "off the record" is because my witness would not speak up at my "trial" to defend me. He was later harrassed and beaten by the same policemen he won my case for. For no apparent reason, as his wife would testify. I don't know because I wasn't there to see it but I had no sympathy for him...he asked for it by allowing bad cops to be bad cops when it was all happening to me. I would have stood up for him had I been witness to any of it though.
To give you some example of how not guilty I was to begin with without having to post all the details, let me just say that I was facing the officer with my wrists extended telling him he was welcome to handcuff me if he thought I needed to be (he had rushed me and hit me in the chest before he realized there was another adult in my house). I was promptly beaten to the ground and held down by my neck with his boot until his back up arrived. He never needed back up...I was co-operating with him to begin with and his reasons for rushing me and hitting me were for things I did not do, things I was not doing, and things I had no knowledge of. In the end, 5 policeman against me in court all had them telling "his side" when none of them were there to see it.

Don't let the badge and the pledge of honor fool you, policeman are people too and the worst of them are nutcases who are looked after by their fellow officers, which makes them just as bad.

K T Ong, thanks for your sympathy. I am glad it is behind me too and I hope it never comes back to haunt me...it always can.

That must have been very scary and obviously painful for you Moni. There is no justification for excessive force being used. I think your "friend" who didnt testify should be beaten just on general principles.

In most cases police entering a home have to be extremely careful since that is where they are most likely to be killed or injured and they have no way of knowing who or what is waiting for them in there. As for someone standing in the way but cooperating, well did he know there was not someone behind you somewhere with a gun? or club?

Im sorry it was bad for you and I myself would really be pissed if some cop barged into my home and threw me down and held me down while waiting for backup (especially if they were, say doing a drug bust and had the wrong house by mistake), but when I had cooled off, I hope I would realize that the tactics just described are pretty much by the book when a lone officer is in a possibly dangerous situation. You really do need to try and see it from their side. Police are shot and killed (2 just this past week in the DC area) when entering homes, it is dangerous for everyone. I know you didnt give the details of your situation and things were likely very different.

As I said mistakes and exceptions do happen.

I Just realized my only run in with police not connected with background checks and polygraphs is limited to traffic stops and on the racketball court. I've never really had to think about how scarey it might be for them to think of me as a criminal with possibly deadly intent. Hmmm can make you stop and think.

[ 09-09-2002, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

The cop who entered my home did so because "the door was open". Two days earlier he had lost an armed suspect with drugs next door. He thought I had something to do with the guy's disappearance even though I had been in the shower while it all went down and didn't even know they had lost an armed suspect until I went out to get my laundry off the line and saw a cop in my other neighbor's yard who told me I needed to go inside and be careful while they looked for him.

The cop knew I lived alone and thought I was alone until he rushed me and hit me in the chest, knocking me into the next room where my company was. It was only upon rushing me again as I was getting up off of the floor that he saw the witness and backed off until I asked him if he would like to hand cuff me.

There was no call for his behaviour and no warrant to search my property for the lost suspect or his dope. They didn't find anything but a clay tobacco pipe that had been a gift to me from a friend....a pipe I was charged with possession of narcotics paraphenalia for owning even though their lab test did not find any drug residue in it. Make no mistake, their was no justification for anything the man did to me or for the way he was defended by his fellow officers. He was just another freaking nutcase with a badge.

[ 09-09-2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Moni ]

Originally posted by Moni: The cop who entered my home did so because "the door was open". Two days earlier he had lost an armed suspect with drugs next door. He thought I had something to do with the guy's disappearance even though I had been in the shower while it all went down and didn't even know they had lost an armed suspect until I went out to get my laundry off the line and saw a cop in my other neighbor's yard who told me I needed to go inside and be careful while they looked for him. The cop knew I lived alone and thought I was alone until he rushed me and hit me in the chest, knocking me into the next room where my company was. It was only upon rushing me again as I was getting up off of the floor that he saw the witness and backed off until I asked him if he would like to hand cuff me. There was no call for his behaviour and no warrant to search my property for the lost suspect or his dope. They didn't find anything but a clay tobacco pipe that had been a gift to me from a friend....a pipe I was charged with possession of narcotics paraphenalia for owning even though their lab test did not find any drug residue in it. Make no mistake, their was no justification for anything the man did to me or for the way he was defended by his fellow officers. He was just another freaking nutcase with a badge.

Yup as I said I think its totaly bogus of him to attack for no reason. I seem to see this a lot more when there are drugs related to the suspected crime. I think it might be partly because the dealers are frequently armed. Why did he know you were alone? Paraphenalia eh? well you got to watch what your friends give you. You know if your friend gave you a package that you didnt open that had drugs in it...by virtue of you keeping it in your house makes you guilty under the law. I know here in DC clay "hash" pipes are considered paraphenalia and as such you are not allowed to own one, just as roach clips and glass pipes are also contraband.

Sounds like you live in a not so nice neighborhood I live in a less than respectable area but so far the police here aren't bad at all and I feel a lot safer with them around than I do without. Guess it all has to do with experiences and perceptions. Hopefully when you finish school, you can get away from that environment.