Ironworks Gaming Forum - Unfreedom of speech

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Quote:

Bush foe loses 'fencing' match
Sign-carrier arrested after balking at curbs

Wednesday, September 04, 2002

By Milan Simonich, Post-Gazette Staff Writer

Sixty-five-year-old Bill Neel wanted to needle President Bush in the spirit of the First Amendment.

So Neel concocted a protest sign, picked up his sister and drove to Neville Island, where they planned to spend Labor Day criticizing Bush in public. The president was in town to make a speech to unionized carpenters.

Neel, of Butler, learned on his arrival that demonstrators against Bush were being herded onto a baseball field behind a fence at Neville Memorial Park.

He refused to join other protesters inside the fence, saying the arrangement infringed on his right of free speech and reminded him of a Nazi concentration camp.

Neel insisted on holding his sign outside the fence, so Allegheny County police arrested him and took him away in handcuffs. They detained him for two hours in a fire hall and confiscated his sign, which said: "The Bushes must truly love the poor -- they've made so many of us."

Neel was freed after he received a summons accusing him of disorderly conduct. He said yesterday he plans to ask for a court hearing because everything he did is protected by the First Amendment.

"The police told me I had to be in the designated free-speech area. That's a contradiction in terms," he said.

Neel's sister, Joyce L. Neel, 50, also was arrested. She ran to her brother as police were taking him away. He said she gets upset easily and can be loud, but she did nothing illegal.

Neville Police Superintendent Edward Selzer said keeping protesters behind a fence was his idea.

"You can't deny them the right to demonstrate, but you can restrict where they demonstrate," said Selzer, a Neville officer for 42 1/2 years. "It's best for everybody that way."

He said almost everyone complied with the arrangement. The Neels were the only two arrested.

County Police Superintendent Ken Fulton said the U.S. Secret Service specified crowd-control procedures to ensure Bush's safety. His officers, he said, were enforcing rules put in place by federal agents.

"The magistrate could let them go when they appear in court," he said of the Neels. "It's no skin off my back."

Selzer said Bush was the first president to visit Neville Island since Franklin Roosevelt in the 1930s, and the event generated intense regional interest. Protesters wanted to use Bush's appearance as an excuse to take over a neighborhood, Selzer said, so he decided to limit their ability to move about.

"One group wanted to have 300 people on the street. That's too large. You can't have them meandering around, carrying signs. That's disorderly."

Neel said he and his sister were not affiliated with any organization. They went to Neville Island to pan the president, he said, because they disagree with his policies.

Various people with signs friendly to Bush were allowed to stand along Neville Island's main street, where the president's motorcade passed. One Neville Island woman carried a homemade sign that said, "Hello, George." She said she stood along the street for about seven hours until Bush arrived.

Neel said county officers were "professional and nonjudgmental" when they arrested him. But, he said, the steps taken to buffer Bush from critics were indefensible.

"It's not me that's in trouble. It's the country," said Neel, a retired steelworker who has run for Congress as a Democrat and for the state Legislature as a Republican.

No date has been scheduled for his court hearing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Milan Simonich can be reached at msimonich@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1956.

I guess free speech is only free when you say what is popular and inoffensive.

Ah, yes, but, as Thomas Jefferson said famously, it does not include the right to shout "Fire!' in a crowded theater.

Quote:

Originally posted by Attalus:
Ah, yes, but, as Thomas Jefferson said famously, it does not include the right to shout "Fire!' in a crowded theater.

Good point there, Attalus. I've heard thousands of arguements about "Freedom of Speech". The interpretation is so subjective it seems.

No surprise here. ;)

Mark

~*Applauds*~

I think public protests are silly wastes of time.

People get too brave when gathered in large groups...like a pack of wild dogs. If there existed a large mass of protestors in the area that any President or Prime Minister in the world was going to be passing...it would be in that country's best interest to let them scream their lungs out from very far away in a controlled area, so that they could be monitored.

Bunch of loonies.

[ 09-06-2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]

You all may want to buy some of John Ashcroft's new brand of TP. Each panel has the Bill of Rights printed on it.

Penning peaceful demonstrators is what I except from repressive regimes in other parts of the world. Not here in the US. If the demonstrators break the law then arrest them, otherwise leave it be.

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
~*Applauds*~

I think public protests are silly wastes of time.

People get too brave when gathered in large groups...like a pack of wild dogs. If there existed a large mass of protestors in the area that any President or Prime Minister in the world was going to be passing...it would be in that country's best interest to let them scream their lungs out from very far away in a controlled area, so that they could be monitored.

Bunch of loonies.

Ehh, Larry, if people can't tell their *elected* government that they think it's not doing what is best for the people who elected them (yes I know, We could go on about that for long time) without gettin arrested, then you don't have democracy or a republic, its more like a fascism.

And hey check out this page, not the first time Bush can't stand the truth

http://www.sacredcow.com/alex_scp/video.html

But since we are not animalistic...there are cetainly better ways that are more civilized than screaming foul, and being chained to a door, refusing to budge before being listened to. It's all publicity. The people wanna appear big and bad in front of their peers...they don't really care if they are really heard...or they would find more productive ways of communication.



I suppose the manner of dealing with this depends on one's personality...as matched to Chaotic good versus Neutral Good, versus Lawful Good. They each want Good,,,but have different beliefs on how to obtain that good. I apologize for being so "Lawful", although I consider myself a cross between neutral and chaotic. Wierd, eh?

[ 09-06-2002, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]

Nah it's okey, I understand your point even if I don't agree with it [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's just that somehow regulated protests sound like a bit of an irony to me... and they always let them take place somewere far away from the actual event, possibly were no one can see them.

what is the point to that ?

Here are a few things that are worth 'taking to the streets' imo:

Overview of Changes to Legal Rights
By The Associated Press
September 5, 2002, 11:44 AM EDT

Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush administration and the USA Patriot Act following the terror attacks:

* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political
institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.

* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.

* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information
related to a terror investigation.

* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison
jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to
Americans accused of crimes.

* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror
investigation.

* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans
indefinitely without a trial.

* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being
able to confront witnesses against them.

************************************************** ****

At some point you have to say enough is enough.