Improved (Current Version Tactics) Bodhi (Spoilers)

[Leslie]

Hey, I did. It was pretty crazy fight, I was in all sorts of trouble but I had some luck going on for me: Minsc killed Undead Sola with Mace of Disruption and then it was much easier. Heh, still had to fight Bodhi though... She died eventually - I had Haer with PFMW and buffs galore kick her butt.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Hank Parsons, the cheese in the Eye-For-An-Eye tactic is NOT in Sanchu. In fact... the very reason why I came up with this tactic was to COUNTER Sanchu.

When Kuriosan was spawned into the modding world, one of the most common complaint was his Acidic Backlash. Upon pondering the issue for a length of time, I formulated a theory in my head and presented it to the players to test it out.

It worked, brillantly. Too brillantly in fact.

All the player had to do was to start a chain reaction using a similar ability, and be immuned to the enemy's ability element.

You can implement this tactic using any of the following.

Fireshield Red/Blue
Hallowed Redeemer
Sanchuwhatjathinga

The battle is OVER the moment the enemy hits you, or you hit him/her/it. Assuming the enemy is not immuned to your ability element that is.

~~~~ ~~~~

Some may say this is the same as spell bouncing, but... not quite. There are similarities, but there are differences too.

[Userunfriendly]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Hank Parsons, the cheese in the Eye-For-An-Eye tactic is NOT in Sanchu. In fact... the very reason why I came up with this tactic was to COUNTER Sanchu. When Kuriosan was spawned into the modding world, one of the most common complaint was his Acidic Backlash. Upon pondering the issue for a length of time, I formulated a theory in my head and presented it to the players to test it out. It worked, brillantly. Too brillantly in fact. All the player had to do was to start a chain reaction using a similar ability, and be immuned to the enemy's ability element. You can implement this tactic using any of the following. Fireshield Red/Blue Hallowed Redeemer Sanchuwhatjathinga The battle is OVER the moment the enemy hits you, or you hit him/her/it. Assuming the enemy is not immuned to your ability element that is. ~~~~ ~~~~ Some may say this is the same as spell bouncing, but... not quite. There are similarities, but there are differences too.

i liked it, was quite impressed by it...

urm...some people playtested this in gamebanshee, and found you need protection from magic weapons up and running to counter the physical attack...

spell immunity conjuration
fireshield blue or red
protection from magic weapons

breach...to remove kuro's protection from energy

its a positive feedback loop...

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Hank Parsons, ...the very reason why I came up with this tactic was ... It worked, brillantly. Too brillantly in fact.

Congratulations on your brilliance. That method is extreme cheese, in my opinion. If it is fun for you, do it. For me it is as fun as Control-Y.

[ 08-17-2004, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Userunfriendly: i liked it, was quite impressed by it... urm...some people playtested this in gamebanshee, and found you need protection from magic weapons up and running to counter the physical attack...

? What physical attack? The only physical attack is when Kurio hits you. Unless you cannot survive a single blow from Kurio, it is game-set-match after a few seconds of game stuttering(as the computer frantically tries to resolve the ping-pong damage).

spell immunity conjuration fireshield blue or red protection from magic weapons breach...to remove kuro's protection from energy its a positive feedback loop...

You just need to either remove his resistance to cold or his resistance to fire. In this regard, Keldorn is like the Anti-Kurio. Since he is blessed with the Inquisitor's Dispel Magics and Hallowed Redeemer.

[Userunfriendly]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: quote: Originally posted by Userunfriendly: i liked it, was quite impressed by it... urm...some people playtested this in gamebanshee, and found you need protection from magic weapons up and running to counter the physical attack...

? What physical attack? The only physical attack is when Kurio hits you. Unless you cannot survive a single blow from Kurio, it is game-set-match after a few seconds of game stuttering(as the computer frantically tries to resolve the ping-pong damage).

spell immunity conjuration fireshield blue or red protection from magic weapons breach...to remove kuro's protection from energy its a positive feedback loop...

You just need to either remove his resistance to cold or his resistance to fire. In this regard, Keldorn is like the Anti-Kurio. Since he is blessed with the Inquisitor's Dispel Magics and Hallowed Redeemer. [/QUOTE]i was simply quoting some people who playtested it at gamebanshee...i betya they did it with fairly low level characters, so sanchu attacks killed them quickly..

urm...pretty sure he casts spell immunity abjuration...breaching him was the only way i was able to drop his elemental protections..

[Assassin]

If you're like me and Breach doesn't pierce SI: Abby, then you'll probably have to run around like a maniac for the 14 rounds that those SIs are up.

I hate having bystanders die, so what I usually do is go to a building, cast only Stoneskin/Ironskin on my party members (no other buffing spells/summons), then CLUA in Kuro. He comes in, and the party starts. It's very similar to the usual way, but no bystanders die to Death Fog. If it wasn't for Death Fog, I wouldn't CLUA him in like that, but he does cast Death Fog.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: She [Bodhi] can't be hurt by any anti-undead tactic. That is acceptable to me. She is a ruler of undeads. You can use such spells on her minions but not on her.

To say that Boss Enemy of type R should be immune to magics that are supposed (even designed) to work against all enemies of type R makes no sense. The Boss should be tougher than his/her minions, sure, perhaps more resistant to Anti-R techniques, but immune to them entirely? In short, if Bodhi is supposed to be Undead, let her bloody well be Undead! None this ■■■■■-footing around because Weimer doesn't think the chick is tough enough. Where Weimer made her immune to False Dawn, I would simply make her immune to Confusion. Where he made her immune to Sunray, I would simply have her drink a Potion of Magic Shielding, so she's guaranteed to make her Save against it.

You cannot be unseen inside her lair. This is acceptable to me. When's the last time an enemy invaded your Planar Sphere, Ranger's Cabin, or other stronghold and waltzed around invisible? You don't have to put up with it, and neither does she. If you have a living heart beating blood, Bodhi can sense it anywhere inside her deepest lair. This is acceptable to me, in fact, it was silly when she couldn't. That seems perfectly fine to me for a major boss on her home turf. The lair could confer a lot of extra protections, such has been true throughout fantasy literature and D&D.

Your "living heart beating blood" analogy makes a lot of sense, and I concede that point. Her having attacks that cannot be defended against, however, I do not. You are correct in that fighting on one's own turf carries major advantages, but to imply that that would allow Bodhi to subvert the laws of magic in her domain is a fallacy: The only creatures that can do that in the D&D universe are gods, and then only in their own home planes, as I stated in my Tactics Review.

True, there are two abilities available to the player that cannot truly be defended against (apart from Power Word: Reload, of course): Turn Undead and Detect Illusions. But Turn Undead can be warded off by making the Undead critters be of higher levels than the Cleric or Paladin--it was still quite easy to vaporize many bosses in an unmodded game, but Tactics cranks the bad guys' levels up to where Turn Undead is once again difficult to abuse. As for Detect Illusions, the player has no defense either, and yes it is used against you: By Damien in the Underdark, and by the Thief in the North Forest.


As for Sanchuudoku, it's my opinion that pretty much any cheese used to fight that sword is A-OK. I'll give a grudging amount of respect to Kuroisan himself, but not his Cloak or Katana. One thing I will say, however, against those who use Fireshield against the sword: If you want to be honorable, you must wait until your THIRD meeting with Kuroisan in order to use it. The first encounter teaches you what his sword does, the second teaches you that he'll keep coming back, and by the time the third comes around, you should have the spells memorized.

Originally posted by JayS: Bodhi should be extremely easy to defeat with this strategy. I certainly noticed this in C3, as I said above.

I agree. Use the correct buffs, even get her alone if you want to, and she's as good as dead. I'm not saying that Improved Bodhi is too difficult (well, not anymore), I'm saying that her cheats are unjustified, and could be better implemented.

Originally posted by Assassin: BTW, I noticed that Bodhi should be immune to Sanchuu's Acid Arrows (immunity to spells level 1-2), but she isn't in my game for some reason.

Many spells in the game (especially Innate Abilities) are treated as Level 1, even if they should be higher. Even Kangaxx's Imprisonment counts as Level 1. Therefore, a simple Minor Globe should theoretically be all you need to gain immunity to all kinds of crap (never tried it against Kangaxx--I prefer Dragon's Breath). Perhaps Weimer wanted to force the player to go the extra mile and find at least one Protection from Acid scroll, so he bumped Sanchu's Acid Arrow up to a level that would bypass Minor Globe and/or Globe--and, by the same token, Bodhi's spell immunities.

[Hank Parsons]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: In short, if Bodhi is supposed to be Undead, let her bloody well be Undead! None this ■■■■■-footing around because Weimer doesn't think the chick is tough enough. Where Weimer made her immune to False Dawn, I would simply make her immune to Confusion. Where he made her immune to Sunray, I would simply have her drink a Potion of Magic Shielding, so she's guaranteed to make her Save against it. ... ... I'm not saying that Improved Bodhi is too difficult (well, not anymore), I'm saying that her cheats are unjustified, and could be better implemented.

Here was Weimer's justification, written in the README:

This component tries to make Bodhi a worthy opponent. Vampires are supposed to be scary. In BG2 they're only good for a laugh. Protection from Undead scrolls, Sunray (Daystar) and False Dawn make short work of them. A solo character with a Pro-Undead scroll can take out all of the Vampire covens in the game. Sigh. Bodhi is worth 91K XP -- more than almost anything else in the game. And yet she is a mere brute-force melee fighter who doesn't even drink healing potions. ... ...the difficulty slider will effect the fight (the EASY and NORMAL levels negate some of her powers, etc.).

For anyone wondering, that paragraph says you can turn down the difficulty slider, if you want to. I think that is a generous feature, that allows you to tailor the fight to what you think is more fair.

[ 08-21-2004, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[Link]

Well, frankly speaking, saying that the difficulty slider is your option of making the fight easier is not a worthy reason at all IMHO.

Sorry for taking so long to make this reply, Hank, but I had university stuff I had to take care of (including a paper and two tests which I hope I passed for.. I just found out I failed one of the tests I made before summer break.. ).

Anyways: look at who Bodhi is. We meet Jonoleth Irenicus and his sister Bodhi. AFter trying to steal the essence of the Tree of Life, both elves are to be banished from Suldanesselar facing the gravest punishment of all: they are to be left soulless. Bodhi finds a way to fill that gap by becoming a vampire, nothing more nothing less. This means that she shouldn't have any special vampiric powers! Storywise, Bodhi is just another elven vampire! Her brother, Jonoleth Irenicus walks another path to fill the aching gap within his body. As a potent mage already (which Bodhi is NOT!) in his elven time, he increases his power, and sets up a plan to once again try and devour the essence of the Tree of Life. For that, he needs a soul, and for a power-hungry elf like Irenicus, that means a potent soul, a strong soul. So who does he choose? He chooses the protagonist of our story because he has Bhaal-essence in him. And why is Irenicus so powerful with this soul? Because he was a 29th level archmage already! Nothing new for you, I hope.

So what are we facing after Spellhold? We've got an elven archmage called Jon Irenicus who has the soul from of a Bhaalspawn, a truly worthy opponent, and we've got an elven vampiress, also with the soul of a Bhaalspawn (courtesy of lovely Imoen). This gives SOME room for Weimer to make both Irenicus and Bodhi more difficult than they were (yes, they were easy in the original game). It does not, however, mean that Bodhi should become a manslaughtering, one-woman killing machine. Because that's what Weimer has turned her into!!

Bhaal essence does not give you super-anti-vampiric powers! For christ's sake, Bodhi owns the powers for like maybe one and a half weeks! It took the player years to control his powers, let alone attain special powers like the ones in the special ability button.

[img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

In short: Bodhi may be a vampire boss, there is no justification for her to have any SPECIAL powers. If Weimer wants Bodhi to be harder, he should have done a different thing to her than give her weird powers such as Cloud of Bats. Make her turn into a bat when she gets injured for instance, make her send in minions when the going gets tough. Why not make it several encounters in the vampire lair instead of one? Weaken the player a couple of times before the final show-down.
Just my two cents, but I think this encounter can be way better.