Whats this forum coming to?

[Ziroc]

I agree with Melusine that this forum has been "gliding down the drain" for the last couple of years.

Cerek, I hope when you said that, you meant THIS 'Current Events' Forum. Because the rest of Ironworks Forum is very polite, and the people are respectful. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It's because people are PASSIONATE about what they believe in, and when someone attacks that belief/view, some people take that as an attack on THEM PERSONALLY--that is the key here. Debate the view, not the person.

Anyone that will personally attack another member will be removed from the forum. We don't need that here, so guys, stop and think before you post, please?

[Memnoch]

What I struggle to understand is why people can get truly, personally enraged at words on a screen. I'm an empathic enough bloke to know when people are starting to get really pissed off, and there have been a lot of pissed-off people here lately. Can't you control yourselves and the way you react to an unfavourable post? If it's really bad, then report it by all means and we'll do something about it. But is it really all worth blowing your top about? Is the world really going to end because you read something you didn't like?

Passion is good, but self-control is good too. Let me ask you again - what do you do in real life when someone says something you don't like or disagree with? Think about it.

[shamrock_uk]

Personally i think a fuss is being made over nothing here. Its easy to have a debate - just refrain from making personal comments or remarks. If you get easily upset, then its not the forum for you - these are emotive issues that are being discussed and therefore are bound to arouse passion in the participants.

If a post is particularly offensive, or attacks a person directly then the person is free to either

a) refute the attack
b) protest the attack and seek an apology
c) use the 'report post' button

Of course the mods don't have time to look through every post, but that's precisely what the report post button is for - so their attention is directed only to where its needed.

If the moderators have not got involved, its because the people involved in the discussion obviously are not offended (either at all or enough) and therefore don't feel the need to seek mediation.

It is not the place of others who aren't involved in a particular discussion to say that a heated discussion is BS - providing the content is PG rated, no rules are clearly broken and the participants themselves do not make a complaint to the moderators using the report post button, then there is nothing wrong with the forum.

Every time that the report post button has been used, there has been an immediate response by the moderators. If you're not happy with a post you see, then by all means, use the report post button. That's what it's there for.

To take the example you used in your first post Chewie, some people do believe that homosexual behaviour is contrary to nature and immoral. If you define immorality by reference to God, then people who adopt a particular strict Biblical interpretation for example could certainly believe this, and its not against the rules to put forward this type of view, providing its not a personal attack on another person. If you find topics like this upsetting or offensive, then you can vote with your feet and not look at the thread.

Personally, I think that by and large, insults are apologised for (and very often inflicted unwittingly in the first place) and those posts that truly are offensive are quickly and efficiently dealt with by the mods after the post is reported.

(Edits and additions for clarity)

[ 06-18-2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[Timber Loftis]

It seems we can also freely accuse forum members of being terrorist supporters, implying they take some pleasure in the deaths by suicide bombing, ect. Never offering some sort of proof, even an inkling, to back it up. Plainly this flamebaiting at best and just a baseless insult at worst.

I don't like to be called out to post against people who haven't been around to defend themselves lately, but if you insist. It's real easy to find the proof and the arguments. Open each and every thread on this forum, and use your search feature on IE (crtl-F)to find the name Skunk. Read each post under that name on every topic. Then draw your own conclusions. My conclusions were based on that body of evidence amassed over time.

You will find that I did not shy away from calling this out at the time it was done. I made the arguments then, and I don't feel like retyping it all now. The arguments are more demonstrable and defensible when read directly subsequent to the posts that triggered them anyway. It's not at all hard to identify the threads where these discussions would occur -- look for titles that include words like Iraq and Palestine and Arab.

I'm not making those accusations because I want to or because I like it. I think that Skunk has a ton of knowledge about the Middle East, and a lot of it I like to hear. But, after months of watching the stance he took, it became clear that he took the side of the terrorists against the US in every instance, even when it was a clearly indefensible position. He has a bias for them and against my country, and I am not the only one who called him out over this. It's not any one of these things that caused me level the accusation, it's the whole bucket of factors added together.

Chewie, you are obviously not shy in calling me out when you think I've gone over the line -- even starting a new thread just for lil ol me. Why do you ask that I act any differently? You think levelling the accusation is wrong... well, I think the posts the accusation is based on are worse. There just came a point when I realized, "you know what, he's on THEIR side." And, yes, with friends of mine being shot every day, it is a take-a-side situation when it comes down to it. People on the same "side" can still debate the rightness or wrongness of their actions, but that's not the same as being for the other side.

Ask yourself this: if someone on the forum were to say “I support the terrorists and I hope they kick the crap out of America which is too big for its britches” would you think that a bannable/punishable statement? What if it’s the same thing, only thinly veiled?

Anyway, I think the end result is it was obviously not over the line. No mod has said anything to me about it yet. And, in the end it’s just my opinion – and you are free to form your own. At least I say what I’m thinking.

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Memnoch: what do you do in real life when someone says something you don't like or disagree with?

I start off by holding my breath and stomping around. If that doesn't work, I hold them down and tickle them until they admit that I am the KING, and that I am right and they are wrong! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Chewbacca]

A final note from me-

Like Cerek, I have endeavored in recent times to remain calm and civil whilst discussing serious topics. Being human and prone to err I may not have always reached this plateua of behavior.

Unfortunatley now it seems my inquiry about certain topics has drawn accusations that I am sometimes rude.

My only reply to such accusations is that I try not to be and will take responsibiltiy for my rude behavior if nesseccary.

A sad wookie,

Scott

[shamrock_uk]

What Timber said. If Skunk felt offended, he would have been free to report the comments TL made. The mods would have asked for an end and TL would have stopped. (Vice versa of course for when the opposite occurs)

You post in this forum to get the opposing view - I disagree with TL on a lot of things, but i've certainly learnt a lot from his posts. Likewise with Skunks posts.

Sure, there are times when I feel a bit aggreived over a response to one of my posts, but they're never malicious responses. A quick look at my post from their point of view easily explains why a reply is heated.

There is no problem here - the system works as well as it could be expected in a forum like this and I for one am very glad that it exists in its current form. Were the mods to regulate it more heavily and not allow the judgement of posters to apply then it would stifle debate, and they get a big 'thumbs up' from me for their approach.

[Memnoch]

I don't want this to turn into a Timber v Chewy public discussion about who was right and who was wrong. Both of you have had a chance to have your say. If you want to continue take it to PM, that can actually be healthy if you both respect each other enough to actually listen to each other's point of view in private. Sort the misunderstandings out and all that.

On another note, that was an excellent post, Shamrock. Cheers mate. Sometimes we get so passionate about our opinion that we forget that other people are just as passionate about theirs. The trick is not let that passion overcome you to the point that it blinds your perspective about things - this is a message forum at the end of the day.

If you guys think that what you're going through is hard, have a thought for us - we have to remain impartial in making decisions while beset on all sides by people who passionately believe that they have been wronged and that their point of view is right, and we need to be able to keep our cool in settling some of these disputes, which in some cases (no disrespect intended) border on the childish. If we can do it, why can't you?

Chill, fellas. We're not each other's enemies here.

[Ziroc]

Everyone -- Do NOT start a flamewar here--or anywhere else [img]smile.gif[/img] This thread is about attacks on people.


Choc thanks thee. [img]graemlins/choc.gif[/img]

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Ziroc: Cerek, I hope when you said that, you meant THIS 'Current Events' Forum. Because the rest of Ironworks Forum is very polite, and the people are respectful. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yes, Ziroc, I did mean the rudeness and impolite behavior was exclusive to the Current Events forum. I thought that was evident from my remarks, but perhaps not - I should have specified that my comments were meant for the actions ONLY in the Current Events forum.

In fact, the decline in decency can be directly traced to these type topics being removed from the General Discussions forum. I don't know why that occurred, exactly, and it isn't meant to imply that threads never got outta hand in G.D. because a few did. But the War Forum was the beginning - when members were allowed a little more freedom to express themselves and their views and then carried over to C.E. when it was formed. I know many members (myself included) clamored loudly for the Current Events forum to be created so we could continue the type of discussions held in the War Forum. I was glad to see it at first, but the Freedom of Expression allowed on the forum slowly evolved into Freedom to be Rude to each other. Expressing passionately led to simply insulting those that disagreed with you - even to the point of making very vulgar remarks about members heritage and parents.

I truly hope everyone here will be mature enough to realize that we have ALL contributed to the problem at one time or another and that we will ALL take strides to prevent this type of behavior from occurring anymore.