Planning ahead!

[ChaosTheorist]

[quote]

WRT to hybrids, I'm facing a dilemma: I either invest in magic (but not int), leaving me with the nagging feeling, that I've wasted zillons of skill points, when thier offensive magic becomes next to useless later in the game. Or I ignore magic for the most part, leaving me with the nagging feeling, that I miss the best part of hybrids: being hybrids. Meanwhile I think, offensive magic is fruitless without powercast, but I'm reluctant to go this route cause I'm afraid, that I'll end up with a less than stellar caster *and* a less than stellar fighter. So I would appreciate some hints/experience with your hybrids builds, esp. in full sized partys, where facing mobs above your level is the norm.

First off, it hasn't been my experience that "offensive magic becomes next to useless later in the game". You have to be careful not to cast high-level Tsunami, Mind Flay, Death Cloud, etc. against Eye-for-an-Eye-protected opponents, but otherwise high-magic and all-magic parties work fine.

WRT "less than stellar": again, if you want the best possible fighter, you have to use a Fighter; nobody else is going to match the damage output. Likewise, if you want the best possible Alchemist-book caster, you have to use an Alchemist. The point of the hybrids is that you can get 70-80% (at least) of *both* sides of the fence.

As mentioned, I bring up INT and whatever skill is most directly applicable to the hybrid's non-magic-combat capability: SEN for a Ranger or a throwing Ninja, STR for everyone else. Once those cap, I bring up DEX and whatever is next-most useful: STR for the Ranger and throwing Ninja (assuming that you want the Ninja to provide some melee or load-carrying support), SPD for the others.

Example: Hobbit Samurai
Stat Start Expert Skill/Level
STR 58 Power Strike 15
INT 64 Power Cast 13(12*)
PIE 30
VIT 55
DEX 58 Reflextion 29
SPD 55 Snake Speed 28
SEN 50

Example: Mook Ranger
STR 58 Power Strike 26
INT 64 Power Cast 13(12*)
PIE 25
VIT 55
DEX 55 Reflextion 28
SPD 36
SEN 67 Eagle Eye 12

*when +5 INT fountain is used before reaching level 12

Depending on the party size and play style, you may or may not see those 3rd and 4th Expert skills. But you get Power Cast and the most-relevant physical-combat Expert skill by at least mid-game--long before you're likely to be spending much time in Ascension Peak, the Mountain Wilderness, or even the Rapax Castle.

Compare: the fastest possible Power Cast (Faerie Mage) and fastest possible Power Strike (Lizard Fighter) are level 9; the Hobbit Samurai gets *both* by level 15. In my book, that qualifies as "not too shabby".

Skill-point development follows a similar pattern: for the first 4 levels, points go into physical-combat academic and weapon skills; for the examples above, that would be Dual Weapons, Close Combat, and Sword for the Samurai and Ranged Combat, Sword, and Bow for the Ranger. Upon reaching level 5, points start going into the book skill--Wizardry for the Samurai, Alchemy for the Ranger. The 3 points taken away to go to the book skill are typically divided among the previous 3 skills, so they get 2 each level-up instead of 3. In the unlikely event that one starts falling behind, you might want to give it a boost for one level. Realistically, the Samurai is still going to be swinging those swords a lot, and the Ranger is going to be twanging that bow string all the time, so the combat-oriented academic and weapon skills should continue to increase pretty quickly. The 5 Rangers in my Rangerettes party just recently reached level 12; the two Mook sword-wielders and the (Hobbit) mace-user have Bow >=75 and Ranged Combat >= 100, and the two spear-swingers (Hobbit and Human) have Bow >= 72 and Ranged Combat >= 96. The two Mooks already have Power Cast up to 6.

Does any of this help?

[ZarahNeander]

Thanks, ChaosTheorist, that's what I was looking for.

Originally posted by ChaosTheorist: First off, it hasn't been my experience that "offensive magic becomes next to useless later in the game". You have to be careful not to cast high-level Tsunami, Mind Flay, Death Cloud, etc. against Eye-for-an-Eye-protected opponents, but otherwise high-magic and all-magic parties work fine.

The correct phrase is: 'offensive magic of non-powercast hybrids'

[EEWorzelle]

Excellent analysis ChaosTheorist!

They are at least one of the ways to develop a Warmage and Power Ranger. Those are great characters, no doubt about it.

On balance, ZarahNeander, you should be aware that, while every caster "needs" Powercast, some sacrifice is involved for Hybrids, in this case pure Samurai and Ranger capability. There are "either/or" choices involved. Please understand that this is not a criticism of the above designs. In fact, I think they're pretty cool!

The biggest sacrifice in the above is Dexterity, for most of the game. In the above, for the Samurai, Dexterity will remain at 58 (other than items) until the Level 16 Level-up, and in the case of the Ranger it will remain at 55 until the Level 13 Level-up. Also at those times, the Dexterity won't instantly be high, but will remain in the 60s and 70s for quite a few more levels. At Level 20, in the endgame, the Samurai Dexterity will be 73 and Ranger Dexterity 79.

For a full size party where the end is not intentionally delayed, the game is over circa Levels 22-25, so Expert Skills that come at Levels 28 and 29 will not appear unless the party is smaller (as CT said). Since the Hybrid gets Level 7 spells at Level 22, at the very earliest, they may not be able to cast them at full effectiveness when the game ends (full party - no delaying end).

As long as I have played this game, I have "championed" Powercast as "the" way to make offensive casting effective throughout the game. Nothing about that has changed. Recently a player (don't remember if on this board or vn) discovered that, as long as intelligence is pushed, later in the game, some damage spells remain 30-40% effective without Powercast, which can be used to soften up enemies slightly out of range instead of spending time running up to them (doing much more damage than a ranged attack). Elementals can be created without Powercast, Portals used, Buffs (like Razor Cloak) placed, Protections cast. These are all less effective without Powercast, but still effective. That allows, for example for the Ranger, maxing Dexterity and Senses, and only then Strength and Intelligence. Or, for the Samurai, Strength and Dexterity and then two of Senses, Speed or Intelligence.

Both Dexterity and Senses add to "to hit" and increase the chance of combat skills improving. Also with more hits in battle there are more chances of increases in Skills through use including Critical Strike, for the Samurai. It would be interesting to develop two Samurai, side by side, one with Powercast and one without, in terms of fighting effectiveness (magic and non-magic). The right choice can depend upon your party and style of play.

There are four Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Speed and Senses, that greatly affect your fighting capabilities. Haste can help with Speed, for most purposes in most areas of the game. Dexterity is important if it increases your hits from 60% to 80%, but is less important when it increases hits from 90% to 93%. In other words, which you are hitting pretty much all the time then improving it further gives little gain.

So what is more effective for your Hybrid character, giving them Powercast or focusing on their key fighting skills first, in early part of the game? My humble apologies, ZarahNeander, if this puts you right back into the dilema for the Hybrid. The fact is that something will not be fully effective at the end of a game ending at Levels 22-25, and you just have to decide, based upon your party and style of play, what that is to be.

Perhaps ironically, it can be more effective in some ways, in some parties, to start with a magic character, who gets spells 4 whole levels earlier, and give them some fighting capability. They will never be more than fair to good at fighting, but there the sacrifices to get it are temporary and evaporate well before the end of the game. Of course defensively, most casters are pretty whimpy.

[ 07-01-2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[ChaosTheorist]

Excellent analysis ChaosTheorist!

Tanx. Right back at ya.

So what is more effective for your Hybrid character, giving them Powercast or focusing on their key fighting skills first, in early part of the game? My humble apologies, ZarahNeander, if this puts you right back into the dilema for the Hybrid. The fact is that something will not be fully effective at the end of a game ending at Levels 22-25, and you just have to decide, based upon your party and style of play, what that is to be.

That's really the key choice for a hybrid: "Do I want this character to be a high-powered spell caster with pretty good melee capability, or a high-powered fighter with pretty good spell casting?" There's just not enough time to make them "high-powered" in both categories. But at least you have the choice: there's zero ability to make a Fighter into any kind of spell caster (well, other than solo/duo parties with lots of training and a late class change), and very little opportunity to give a specialist caster meaningful fighting ability.

I should have pointed out that the Ranger (along with the throwing Ninja) is perhaps the most difficult of the hybrids to develop, because you'd really like your Ranger to be really good at *three* things: Alchemist-book magic, ranged combat, *and* melee combat. As EEW points out, that really isn't possible, because there's not enough time to raise all of the necessary stats (STR, INT, DEX, SPD, SEN). In my case, I choose to put spell casting first, followed (closely) by ranged combat, which means I have no choice but to back-burner the melee-combat ability. Choosing to forego Power Cast and bring up DEX in lieu of INT to get a stronger hacker/defender is a perfectly legitimate alternative. Either flavor of Ranger pretty much has to go for strong ranged combat and early Eagle Eye, else why bring a Ranger at all? People generally don't expect their Lords, Valkyries, Samurais or Monks to be ranged-combat experts, so there's less to "give up" with those classes.

[ScottG]

ZarahNeander,

I differ with ChaosTheorist on this one (for a pure hybrid). First look at what their primary use will be: ALWAYS physical combat (otherwise go with a pure magic caster or a magic caster dualed to a magic aligned hybrid later). The magical portion will be a distant second (particularly with damage spells). (This isn't to say you can't have your cake and eat it to however - at least most of the time.) Next ascertain its primary form of physical combat. If its a character with formation at the front-line then you need to be able to take hits - which suggests a melee character with substantial hit points. If not then this suggests ranged physical combat. Choose your attributes to max according to the characters use. For instance a Ranger that will focus on ranged combat should look at maxing dexterity and speed first (hit rate and number of attacks). If you think it will be almost exclusivly ranged then the next attribute would be senses followed by strength. (If you intend to dabel in melee then I'd suggest strength followed by senses - but I wouldn't recomend this.) (Of course you might want a Ranger to be a melee expert who dables in ranged combat - which would suggest an alternative attribute concentration.) Now choose your race to fit this profile the best.

As far as skills are concerned: physical combat skills are rather easy to increase even if your character is a senseless moron. Magic skills can be difficult to increase for hybrids because higher spell levels are not available until latter (the higher the spell level the faster the skill increase) - ALWAYS allot your skill points first to the magic realm (alchemy for ranger) and then distribute points in those magic skills that you use the least. (Of course train all skills as best you can.)

Spells and Powercast.

Obviously look for resistances, in addition however (if you can) utilize spells that work with your combat preferance. For ex. when utilizing a ranger as a ranged combat expert then fire off offensive spells like sleep or blinding flash. Even if they don't work you'll still increase your skills. If they do work then you will have a physical combat advantage with a ranged weapon (as well as a defensive advantage). If you need the particular offensive spell to work then look at your party: obviously if someone else has Powercast and the required spell then utilize that character; alternativly if you have a group of weak casters with the same spell then have 3 or more cast the same spell at the same time. I have often utilized this tech. with multiple rangers all at level 50 intelligence. If the monster group is near your level with around a 50% resistance (or less) AND each character fires off the spell at full force (assuming you have the ability) then typically more than 40% of the monster group(s) will sucumb to the spells effect (and because its at full power the spell lasts longer). I particularly love this tech. with magic casting monsters (pop off sleep x3 at full level). This technique typically does NOT work with a single high resistance monster like Nessie. (And of course this technique works well/better with strong magic casters.)

Additionally when looking at hybrids, look for defensive spells (rather than offensive spells) to use. This is typically a far better solution (particularly with a Ranger ranged combat expert because of the alchemist book). At higher levels the ranger can use soul shield and element shield. As important - they most likely have Snakespeed and will be "speed" casters who have a better chance of getting up defenses before monsters will strike (something your other magic casters might not be able to do as quickly). Finally, you don't have resistances to counter here.

All that said however, I can't really see a reason for choosing a pure hybrid unless its just something new for fun. Which ties in with ChaosTheorist's example of: if you want a fighter get a fighter, not a hybrid.

[EEWorzelle]

ScottG, the Expert Skill, Snakespeed, gotten after Speed = natural 100, does not have any effect on any character other than the one that gets it.

Or were you referring to the Haste spell? If so, that also does not have any effect on the order of who will cast in the round it is cast. That means if you have slow or medium speed Soul and Element Shield casters, then Haste cast very quickly will not make them suddenly jump to the front of the line and cast their shields before initially faster enemies get their shot. There is actually very little reason for the Haste caster to be fast, since most of the effects take place in the next round.

There are earlier posts on this and other boards concerning the awesome Haste Spell. It was two players, Shojo and Merkin, who discovered (or rather noticed) that casting Haste does not change spell casting order in that round. It does increase the number of swings per attack for attacks that have not yet taken place in that round.

To get those shields up first, reliably, those casters need to be fast all on their own. In my parties the Soul and Element Shield casters are the only fast ones, with Snakespeed. All of the others (including the Bard who casts it) get fast only after Haste is cast.

[ 07-02-2003, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[ChaosTheorist]

Additionally when looking at hybrids, look for defensive spells (rather than offensive spells) to use. This is typically a far better solution (particularly with a Ranger ranged combat expert because of the alchemist book). At higher levels the ranger can use soul shield and element shield.

I'm sure a Ranger would *love* to be able to use Soul Shield--but they can't cast it. Or Armorplate. Or Magic Screen, Missile Shield, Eye for an Eye, Silence, etc. Basically, the Ranger has *one* defensive spell (well, 1.5 if you count Razor Cloak as an "active defense"). Every other book has much better coverage in the areas of directly protecting against damage, indirectly protecting by reducing the opponent's ability to damage you, or avoiding combat altogether. Rangers kick butt in the areas of offensive and curative magic, but are distinctly weak with respect to defensive magic. That's why my Rangerettes party is 5 Rangers + Bishop instead of 6 Rangers.

[ScottG]

CT are you sure about this? Its been awhile since I've played that Ranger party, I was almost positive that 4th level element shield and soul shield were available. (if not, oh well...live and learn, my bad.) "edit* yup, just looked back - no soul shield (must have been the psion in that party....)

EEW... ummmm, yup Snakespeed is for that character only. (sorry if I wasn't clear enough.) so.....

The concept is for any magic caster to raise the party's magical resistance before your opponents attack magically. To better acomplish this of course requires a high personal initiative - which in turn is dominated by the attribute Speed. Snake speed furthers this initiative (though at only half the rate of a speed attribute point allocation). Chances are most magic casters in the party have not developed this high personal initiative, (though in my opinion its prob. the most important attribute for a magic caster). In the Ranger example the speed attribute was one of the dominate attributes for its ranged attack ability. While your other casters may be loafing along with a low personal initiative, this Ranger/Alch. caster has a much higher probability of "getting it up" (see spell question above) before any magical damage happens to the party.

[ 07-02-2003, 02:17 AM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

[ZarahNeander]

Thanks for all the input, very interesting. Some notes.

Originally posted by ChaosTheorist: That's really the key choice for a hybrid: "Do I want this character to be a high-powered spell caster with pretty good melee capability, or a high-powered fighter with pretty good spell casting?"

A "a high-powered fighter with pretty good spell casting" would be absolutly fabulous, only that I always end up with a high powered fighter with crappy spell casting. However:

- I'm only talking about offensive spells (for hybrids) here. Powercast does very little for buffs, it increases the duration, but not the efficiency (can be verified with ele/soul shield, BoS). So if I want a defensive hybrid, I'm fine with the starting 55 int (small nitpicking, CT, the alch has 2 defensive spells: ele shield & BoS).

- I'm aware that it isn't possible to build a jack of all trades, who instant-kills left & right *and* cast earthquake (7) in the next round.

- I'm aware, that there's a window of opportunity for offensive hybrid magic, somewhere after Trynton, but before Rift.

As I said, I never tried a hybrid with powercast, they might be fun, but from a munchkin's PoV, does it pay off? Or does it end like this:

-- Round 4 ---
Ranger1 casts boiling blood(6) at ironwood elder:
boiling blood(6) does 34 dmg (that's pretty optimistic already)
Ranger2 shoots seige arbalest(sp?) at ironwood elder 2x:
Hits for 40 dmg.
Hits for 36 dmg. INSTANT KILL!!!

I'll see.I started a party (sam, nin, monk, valk, ascended the same setup before, so I can compare) with the goal to make them powerful powercasters (except the valk). Ignoring my instincts I took hobbit sam & mook ranger. After all, I'm a conservative old lady, who is hard pressed to believe that piety is soo useless for casters. Now in Trynton & not surprisingly, they suck big time. The mook ranger can cast 4 yellow lvl 1 acid splashes in a row. I hoped, the Rapax patrols died of laughing, but instead, a caustic vine joined the fray. Hopefully there's no stiff opposition between me & the next rezz powders. Anyway..

Originally posted by ScottG: If the monster group is near your level with around a 50% resistance (or less) AND each character fires off the spell at full force (assuming you have the ability) then typically more than 40% of the monster group(s) will sucumb to the spells effect

That's exactly the problem: how often do you see mobs with res 50% or lower, after your hybrids get decent offensive spells? And if you do, magic isn't needed at all, cause you can kill them in two rounds anyway. I.e, in the swamp, my sam can toast some millipedes with her fireball, but what if dank beetles or - *shudder* - ryjinn elites show up?

[EEWorzelle]

Yes, ZarahNeander, those four levels are by far the biggest problem for a Hybrid trying to use magic to kill.

At Levels 1-4, a Power Level One Energy Blast doing a typical 3-7 damage can be effective when combined with Mind Blast by the Psionic, Acid Spash from an Alchemist and Make Wounds from a Priest. Monsters few in number, with 30 HP of damage each, or even a single foe with 100 HP are grist for that mill.

However, when you are at Level 6 and facing half a Dozen Higardi Roustabouts with 80+ HP each, capable of doing several powerful blows per round, then two or three rounds of pin pricks like above only makes them giggle a bit as the party is rapidly crushed. On the other hand, if they have to contend with Whipping Rocks, Fireballs, Insanity and Web, it's a different situation. They are still tough, but now it's the party's turn to giggle when a couple get close enough to land a few blows.

So, in a sense, the "timing is off a bit" for Hybrids becoming powerful magically. They have to rely on their fighting skills for the first four levels and, in practical terms, for several levels after that. I have used a Power Ranger, similar to what CT described, very effectively in one of my parties, but I also had a Mage, Alchemist, Priest, Psionic and Bard in that party so the Ranger's fledgling spells could be exercised without depending upon them to actually stop the enemies.

One of the expert players here, Wereboar, played a 4 hybrid party, one from each school of magical mastery, and went for Powercast with all of them. He really enjoyed it, but said, at the time (if I remember his post correctly) that it was the most difficult game he ever played.

There are three basic ways to play, which are ways of handling most opponents, and those are Melee, Ranged and Magic (defining the major way most enemies die, although all three are used). To use Magic to take out your foes, you need a lot of magic and you need it early. Several Hybrids and Fighters pretty much demand either Melee or Ranged as the major strategy, but you can have one or two of your Hybrids go the Powercast route. If you go with all Powercast Hybrids, and are skillfull enough to survive on just their limited early fighting skills, they will get very powerful later.

For a Melee or Ranged emphasis, look to magic for protections (Magic Screen, Missle Shield, Armorplate, Guardian Angel, Bless, Soul Shield, Element Shield, Chameleon), counterpunches (Eye for Eye, Razor Cloak), healing (Heal Wounds, Cure Poison, Cure Paralysis, Stamina, Rest All, Heal All, Cure Lesser Condition,...), buffing (Superman, Haste, Enchanted Blade...), summon, (Summon Elemental), utility (Divine Trap, Detect Secrets, Light, Shadow Hound, Knock Knock, Portal...), crippling (Web, Paralyze, Toxic Cloud, Freeze Flesh, Freeze All, Itching Skin, etc.) and later thinning (Asphyxiation, Quicksand, Death Cloud, Death Wish, Instant Death and Turncoat). All of these support a Melee or Ranged party very well. The later reduces the number of enemies and, in the case of Turncoat actually increases the number of friends temporarily. Magic damage spells can also help some of the time, but more in a complementary or occasional use way.

For a Magic emphasis party, there are enough single target damage spells to really add up and be plenty powerful enough to take out foes at the very low levels many are gotten (Energy Blast, Frost, Make Wounds, Acid Splash, Mind Stab, Crush,...). However it is the cone and area effect spells which are the power of these parties (Shrill Sound, Whipping Rocks, Whirlwind, Fireball, Iceball, Noxious Fumes, Psionic Blast, Holy Water, Ego Whip...). These are great for killing all enemies at once, a little bit each at a time. A very common sight after a couple or three rounds is when the number of foes drops from 12 down to 3, in a single attack, because they have all, pretty much, run out of HP. When that's the method, then a Ranger that takes out one or two foes with arrows matters very little, because that last Whipping Rocks or Fireball can take out 12 foes just as easily as 10.

A good rule of thumb for character development when beginning this game is develop what your character is good at first. Even when doing that, Hybrids take a long time to become good at what they do best. Another is to look at your party as a whole and decide what the character you are developing needs to do within that party.

ScottG, sorry but I don't think initiative has anything to do with Magic Resistance other than casting the shields. Magic resistance comes from natural resistances, Magic Screen, Soul and Element Shields, Iron Will, Items and a little bit from Piety. Piety, Iron Will, Items and Magic Screen do not involve Initiative in any way. It is only the shields that need to be cast fast, as noted above. High personal initiative is only needed for that. If it was the Soul and Element Shield Casters you were referring to, then I guess we are in agreement. In my parties I generally have two casters, one for each shield, with Speed=100, Snakespeed and good Senses (which also increases initiative). The other two are intentionally slow (Speed no higher than 55), so those precious Attribute points can go to other things. During most of the game their Speed will be 125 starting in round two anyway.

[ 07-02-2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]