Improved (Current Version Tactics) Bodhi (Spoilers)

[JrKASperov]

My point was, your party is going to see the dragon from miles away, meaning you should get the ability to buff.

Dragons DO get colossal meaning the size of DnD, if you don't accept that, why are you bothering other people who are playing a DnD game?

Even with the moderate damage, 100, half of your party will get chunked, unless you decided to take a full-fighter party. Right, let's make a save, now one quarter will still get chunked, every time, gee, how realistic.

[Annatar]

Dragons are huge, immens in human eyes .. in DnD you have alot of dragons, but even the smaller races are highly noticeable when up in the air.

Small Teeth Pass doesn't even make any sense, when you look at Dragons they are pure solatiry creatures .. only a few dragon races hunt in packs, red dragon as example would rather slay a kin-like before sharing his treasure and domains.

So role-playing wise, its impossible to have 3/4 kind of races of dragons in the same place, they would kill each other before you'll get the chance, even more unlikely they will help each other to butcher you!

Just my 2 cents in this thread about Imp. Bodhi.. sorry for the hijack..

[chimaera]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 1) Maximum Range. Fire cannot travel long distances, yet the Red Dragon hits you from half the map away.

Did a test on it? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 2) Line of Sight. If the Dragon can see you, then you can see it

If it was like this, then predators larger then their prey would have encountered a lot of problems surviving.

[ 08-31-2004, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: chimaera ]

[Annatar]

Originally posted by chimaera: Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 1) Maximum Range. Fire cannot travel long distances, yet the Red Dragon hits you from half the map away.

Did a test on it? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

From what I know about the Dragon Breath its not pure fire, its an consistant mass of lava-like liquid combined with red-fire, hence its capable of reaching high speeds and travel a far distance.

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: 2) Line of Sight. If the Dragon can see you, then you can see it

If it was like this, then predators larger then their prey would have encountered a lot of problems surviving.

Don't forget the intelligence of a Red Dragon greatly exceeds the intelligence of humans, this is the same with their line of sight, they can see/smell prey's for miles ... their eye-sight is far more advanced in comparison with our own sight and capability of it.

[ 08-31-2004, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: Annatar ]

[Assassin]

IIRC, the red dragon fireballing you across the map was not a design feature, but an unexpected addition by modifying Firkraag's AI.

But then again, nothing has been changed, so the mod maker may have just decided to leave it in.

[Dundee Slaytern]

One of these days, Six. You are going to kill me with laughter from your posts.

[Hank Parsons]

one very important bellwether supersedes all others: Gary Gygax.

Not so in modern times, SixOfSpades. You should talk to Wizards Of The Coast about that, because Gary Gygax didn't write 2nd Edition AD&D, which is the rule-set that BG2 is based on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax
Gygax invented 1st Edition AD&D, and it was severely modified by a team of authors for 2E. (BTW, Gygax apparently suffered a mild stroke on May 4th, 2004.)

Furthurmore, Gygax is not a member of IronWorks (AFIK), and you don't speak for Gygax. Therefore we can hardly query his opinion on this issue. But we can cite his writings from AD&D 1E rules.

And if we can query him via his writings: Gygax was a massive-huge proponant of the idea that the Dungeon Master can flex the rules (such as monster stats) at any time to make the game more fun. Of course Gygax would say the DM must have a justification -- a backstory -- and that the players must use imagination to envision the scenario the DM describes. Else you're not playing the game. The failure of people to understand the justifications in Tactics lies largely with the players adherance to Normal BG2 prejudices ("Skeletons should be easy." "Dragons can fly but choose not to."), while being unwilling to envision the changes wrought by the Dungeon Master you've chosen to lead your adventure (the author, in this case Weimer).

Six of Spades said: I find it odd that among all the stuff that Tactics adds to the game, it completely ignores the Journal. Not even the Ritual gets a single Journal entry. That's one example of how immersive Tactics (and, indeed, all mods) should be.

Bah. That's my least-favorite SixOfSpades suggestion in this thread. The Journal is silly in a Battle Improvement style mod, if not generally silly in BG2. Your character has a magical pen that writes it for you? If you want a Journal, buy a notebook and a pen and keep it on your desk by your computer. Have we really gotten so far from Gygax's D&D that we cannot make our own notes?

The last thing I want clogging up bytes in the Tactics download is words-on-fake-parchment. Give me better AI, give me more enemies, give me short and funny dialogs that lead to battles. Forget about typing a bunch of backstory, leave that to story-enhancing mods. Keep Tactics to its core competency: making battles more difficult.

Having no Journal clues to fall back on, is another way of making the game challenging and realistic.

Dragons fly? Sure they do, and they can use their Breath Weapons from midair too. But they're still subject to restrictions: 1) Maximum Range. Fire cannot travel long distances, yet the Red Dragon hits you from half the map away. What, did he breathe his Fireball into an envelope and mail it to you or something? 2) Line of Sight. If the Dragon can see you, then you can see it, meaning that the party should know a) It's there at all, and b) What color it is. 3) Line of attack. If it can attack you, then you can reciprocate with missiles and spells. STP does not allow this until you "find" where the Red Dragon actually is.

1) The dragon flies over you, breaths fire, and then flies to his position across the map. Due to the limits of the graphics engine (it doesn't show the sky), you the player did not see the dragon flying. However, using your imagination which is a prerequisite of playing RPG's, your characters DO see the dragon fly overhead and breath-weapon you.

2) Line of Sight. Dragons eyesight far exceeds humans. They see like eagles from the sky. They see you visually miles before you see them (if they didn't scry you with magic a dozen miles before that). Especially if they are flying and you the player did not specifically say to the Dungeon Master: "I scan the sky for flying creatures." It is assumed you are looking to the roadside and woods for lurking dangers. Furthurmore, the canopy of tree cover obscures your view of the sky.

3) Line of Attack. If the dragon's attack range exceeds your attack range, then you cannot reciprocate attacks until you move closer to the dragon (who has surprise attacked you with breath weapon, and then immediately flew furthur away while he still had the combat initiative [a D&D rule which is poorly implemented in BG2]; and don't forget his movement rate while flying is fast enough to get him to Athkatla and back while you scurry around on the ground). This is implemented in Improved Small Teeth Pass.

Ranger: Hey, there's a big Dragon sitting by that gap in the cliffs up ahead. Should we tell CHARNAME?

I liked your story dialog (I laughed), and I think we should debate all Tactics componants using only fake dialogs. LOL.

Seriously though: How did your Ranger (human eyesight?) spot the dragon before it spotted him (eagle eyesight)? If I was that dragon, I would eat the Ranger before he talks to CHARNAME.

Six of Spades said: That assumes that a major, MAJOR factor of this game's replayability (i.e., using different PCs) does not exist.

I never assumed that, and don't see how you got that from what I wrote. I love replayability. Besides, I think normal BG2 is easier with a solo character than it is with a party, because of how fast you level up. Normal BG2 was fairly easy regardless of your party (all wizards? fine. 2 druids? fine. Solo bard? fine.). This is great for replay flexibility, but is unimmersive and unrealistic (you can beat any challenge regardless of which skills you have? Not IRL). Tactics makes this more realistic: you've walked into a battle without the skills you need to survive? You're dead. Cool!

JrKASperov said: Right, let's make a save, now one quarter will still get chunked, every time, gee, how realistic.

I'm not necessarily saying this is fun or good-gaming, but it IS realistic. I don't think you can argue against the realism of a flying dragon slaughtering a party of humans and demi-humans. What's unrealistic is the party killing dragons, the most powerful mortal creatures in the world, without sacrifices and loss of life. Dragons sitting on the ground and falling to sword-pricks and giving up their thousand-year hordes is unrealistic. If you kill them with heroic valor and realistic losses, then it is epicly believeable.

[ 08-31-2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[Annatar]

I liked your story dialog (I laughed), and I think we should debate all Tactics componants using only fake dialogs. LOL. Seriously though: How did your Ranger (human eyesight?) spot the dragon before it spotted him (eagle eyesight)? If I was that dragon, I would eat the Ranger before he talks to CHARNAME.

Rangers can be elven, suffice to say is that elven have an excellent eye-sight, far more superior to humans... [img]smile.gif[/img] maybe his Ranger isn't human, but elven-kin

1) The dragon flies over you, breaths fire, and then flies to his position across the map. Due to the limits of the graphics engine (it doesn't show the sky), you the player did not see the dragon flying. However, using your imagination which is a prerequisite of playing RPG's, your characters DO see the dragon fly overhead and breath-weapon you.

The checkbox also betitles something about a dragon roaming the sky IIRC

2) Line of Sight. Dragons eyesight far exceeds humans. They see like eagles from the sky. They see you visually miles before you see them (if they didn't scry you with magic a dozen miles before that). Especially if they are flying and you the player did not specifically say to the Dungeon Master: "I scan the sky for flying creatures." It is assumed you are looking to the roadside and woods for lurking dangers. Furthurmore, the canopy of tree cover obscures your view of the sky.

As what I stated

3) Line of Attack. If the dragon's attack range exceeds your attack range, then you cannot reciprocate attacks until you move closer to the dragon (who has surprise attacked you with breath weapon, and then immediately flew furthur away while he still had the combat initiative [a D&D rule which is poorly implemented in BG2]; and don't forget his movement rate while flying is fast enough to get him to Athkatla and back while you scurry around on the ground). This is implemented in Improved Small Teeth Pass.

True, though Greater Dragons ( the greater kin that is, wich you all encounter in the Small Teeth Pass ) are rather slow with movement, faster than a human on a horse oke, but still do-able for a trained elven archer, suffice to say is that a repercussion can follow if deald swiftly (if it were possibly in this situation)

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: I'm not necessarily saying this is fun or good-gaming, but it IS realistic.

Why didn't you just say that a dozen posts earlier? I think the whole core of this debate isn't whether a mod is realistic or not, since I think you've demonstrated how even the most poorly balanced design ideas can be justified as realistic, but rather is it fun? Does it enhance the gaming experience?

I believe it is important for a good game mod to keep within it's respective world's realm of plausibility, but the reverse doesn't fly. Ie, a mod or game design idea isn't good just because it's plausible. I could make a mod that randomly kills of the entire party when exploring caves. It is of course a disastrous mod idea, but it's entirely plausible that the party would run the risk of suddenly being caught in a collapsing cave, and I don't doubt that a sadistic DM in a PnP game could make something like that happen.

Maybe this is obvious to you, but then I don't see why the last dozen posts in this thread has been about the plausibility of a 20d10 fireball from out of nowhere annihilating your entire party immediately upon entering the Small Teeth Pass, when at the end of the day it is still a terrible idea for amping up the challenge of the area.

[ 08-31-2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Feral]

Originally posted by Rataxes: I could make a mod that randomly kills of the entire party when exploring caves.

LOL - this idea is right up there with the "entire party comes down with scurvy on the trip to Brynnlaw and must have its teeth yanked out" mod. Thanks for the laugh, Rataxes.

[ 08-31-2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Feral ]