Improved (Current Version Tactics) Bodhi (Spoilers)

[Assassin]

Bodhi should still have good Saves, of course, but I'm not going to support cranking her Save vs. Death down to -20 (thus negating 1/3rd of all the spells in the game against her)

Well, I just have to pop in here for a second and ask just how many spells are there with a Save versus death? Using gamefaq's Item Guide (all the wizard scrolls), I found out that there are two. For Arcane spells. Black Blade of Disaster and Symbol, Death. =/ Both level 9 spells, and IIRC, she's already immune to disintegration (the save for BBoD), and Symbol, Death she appears to be already immune to (though I'm a novice to Inf Explorer). As to Clerical spells... there really doesn't seem to be any really, unless there's a damaging spell somewhere that needs a save versus death. Most of the spells save versus... spells and things like Finger of Death save versus Necromancy.

As for items... Darts of Wounding, the Biting Ammunition series, and the odd weapon here and there are the only ones. [img]redface.gif[/img]

ADD] On a side note, here's what I found:

FAMIMP25 - Upgraded imp (Throne of Bhaal) This is your familiar, an imp, currently grumpy yet safe within your backpack. The imp is an unusual creature that is fairly quick and quite resistant to magical spells... and has the ability to cast its own spells on behalf of its master. Abilities: Armor Class: -2 Hit Points: 48 Magic Resistance: 35% Special abilities: Can cast 'Polymorph Self' once per day, attack does 1d6 damage with poison (save vs. death or die), regenerates 1 HP per second

Has anyone actually tested out the save vs. death or die part? [img]redface.gif[/img]

[ 08-27-2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[chimaera]

Originally posted by Assassin: Well, I just have to pop in here for a second and ask just how many spells are there with a Save versus death? Using gamefaq's Item Guide (all the wizard scrolls), I found out that there are two. For Arcane spells. Black Blade of Disaster and Power Word: Kill.

Symbol, Death.
Sorry, Assassin, couldn't resist.

[Assassin]

Originally posted by chimaera: quote: Originally posted by Assassin: Well, I just have to pop in here for a second and ask just how many spells are there with a Save versus death? Using gamefaq's Item Guide (all the wizard scrolls), I found out that there are two. For Arcane spells. Black Blade of Disaster and Power Word: Kill.

Symbol, Death.
Sorry, Assassin, couldn't resist. [/QUOTE]You got me before my edit. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[SimDing0]

Originally posted by Assassin: Let me ask a question to all of you people: If someone made a mod that simply cut all experience and gold in the game in half and didn't change anything else, would you still use it?

Like this? [img]smile.gif[/img]

And while I'm here, I feel obliged to drop in my views on Tactics...

It makes the game harder. Great, but I don't think it goes about it in particularly the right way. With a few exceptions, Tactics homes in on a few battles and makes them EXTREMELY hard. The result of this is that the game becomes very inconsistent: you've got really tough battles followed by comparatively very easy ones, and so on. This alone is enough to break the immersiveness of the game, because it becomes painfully obvious that someone's just come along and decided something needs to be harder with no consideration for the game as a whole.
A better approach would be an overall revision of all enemies to be tougher. This would result in a more consistent game, rather than one in which exceptionally tough battles are just scattered about.
Tactics also does not account for different levels of play. I, along with many others, want more realistic AI (for convincing behaviour is once again paramount to game immersiveness), and perhaps a slightly greater challenge. Tactics, however, can only offer me something ridiculously hard. Responding to the difficulty slider would be a great virtue.
Finally, there are some design decisions which completely wreck the game atmosphere. "Land War in Asia" is not what I want to see in the gameworld, and neither is the ongoing joke that is Pontifex' dialogue. The mod's mandate is to make the game harder, not break the fourth wall in as many ways as possible. Tactics is very clearly attempting to make the game harder without going about it in a "professional" way. The overall disjointed series of tough battles reminds me more closely of Serious Sam than an immersive role-playing game. But I guess some people like it, heheh.

Well... those are my complaints, anyway. I just posted to point out the above link, really. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Hank Parsons]

The result of this is that the game becomes very inconsistent: you've got really tough battles followed by comparatively very easy ones, and so on.

Such is life. It would be awefully linear if 1st level PC's faced 1st level monsters, and 20th level PC's faced 20th level monsters. Thankfully original BG2 was not like that, and Tactics is not like that either. Bosses are supposed to be harder -- virually all computer battle-games recognize this.

This alone is enough to break the immersiveness of the game, because it becomes painfully obvious that someone's just come along and decided something needs to be harder

Tactics is not designed for first-time players who have yet to experience the story. Nor is it for re-players who want to be continually immersed in the story-line (such people would do better with Banter Packs, Flirt Packs, etc.). Tactics is explicitly designed for people who have already beat the game, who want to go back and re-challenge the high level bosses, and actually be challenged, instead of waltzing through the entire game with your eyes closed for the 12th time. There's nothing immersive about that, unless bored=immersed.

A better approach would be an overall revision of all enemies to be tougher. This would result in a more consistent game, rather than one in which exceptionally tough battles are just scattered about.

First, that's what the Difficulty slider already does (very poorly, I might add). Doing a uniform increase in difficulty is fine if that's what you want, but that would not solve your requests for immersion or realism. It's more realistic to have Bosses be challenging (Faldorn, Bodhi, Irenicus, Firkragg), and have basic monsters fall quickly to heroes. The problem was when Bodhi fell faster than a Kobold, and Tactics helps to address this.

Besides, you appear to misunderstand Tactics, or perhaps have not actually played it. Surely you didn't think that Improved Druid's Grove was easy and only Faldorn was hard? Tactics does not fix only singular bosses, it fixes entire classes of creatures, and hence: the entire quests and maps they inhabit. Tactics increases difficulty of many entire-maps of BG2:

• Druid's Grove;
• D'Arnise Keep not just Torgal is enhanced, but the upstairs fight also;
• any map with undead such as Unseeing Eye entire quest;
• any map with mind flayers such as lair in sewers and lair in Underdark;
• any map with mages which is perhaps 1/5 of the fights in the entire game;
• any map with Beholders;
• The Ritual entire map;
• and more.

So it's far away from your description of the random enemy here-and-there who is improved. In actuality, Tactics has the effect of making SOME of the game challenging, as opposed to original BG2 which was 99% easy-as-hell. I sneezed at most original-BG2 bosses and they died.

Tactics does not increase the difficulty of kobolds, and you'll be so shocked and unimmersed when you leave Druid's Grove after 20 difficult fights with Spirit Trolls, and then beat a Kobold in 2 seconds. Hey, it's better than beating Druid's Grove in 8 seconds, followed by a Kobold in 2 seconds.

Tactics also does not account for different levels of play. I, along with many others, want more realistic AI (for convincing behaviour is once again paramount to game immersiveness), and perhaps a slightly greater challenge. Tactics, however, can only offer me something ridiculously hard. Responding to the difficulty slider would be a great virtue.

I fully respect your desire for a mod that suits you. That is your choice. I want something more challenging than you want, is that alright?

Tactics DOES make use of the difficulty slider on some encounters (namely, Improved Bodhi.) Weimer could do this more, if he wants to, but so far everyone on this thread only complained about the difficulty slider option. I really believe most of these people complained without actually trying the slider on Imp Bodhi.

neither is the ongoing joke that is Pontifex' dialogue.

Pontifex, the guy at the start of Tactics The Ritual? He was hilarious. Very well-written and funny dialog. What's the problem with this? It was great.

series of tough battles reminds me more closely of Serious Sam than an immersive role-playing game.

Yes, it is. You're right. I don't recall anyone claiming that Tactics is a role-immersion mod. It's a tougher battles mod. This is what it is supposed to do.

[ 08-27-2004, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[SimDing0]

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: [QB]Such is life. It would be awefully linear if 1st level PC's faced 1st level monsters, and 20th level PC's faced 20th level monsters. Thankfully original BG2 was not like that, and Tactics is not like that either. Bosses are supposed to be harder -- virually all computer battle-games recognize this.

Somewhat harder. Not ridiculously harder. And of course, in a hypothetical scenario where Tactics is the only mod installed, Bodhi will be tougher than the final battle of ToB. This is horribly inconsistent.

Tactics is not designed for first-time players who have yet to experience the story. Nor is it for re-players who want to be continually immersed in the story-line (such people would do better with Banter Packs, Flirt Packs, etc.).

That doesn't justify it breaking the immersion.

Tactics is explicitly designed for people who have already beat the game, who want to go back and re-challenge the high level bosses, and actually be challenged, instead of waltzing through the entire game with your eyes closed for the 12th time. There's nothing immersive about that, unless bored=immersed.

Tactics could easily be MADE immersive. It's realistic for the encounters to be difficult. It's not realistic for them to be inconsistent or done in ridiculous ways.
So are you telling me you think a game without the immersion is better than one with it?

First, that's what the Difficulty slider already does (very poorly, I might add).

"Very poorly" says it all. And Tactics bumps everything up to difficulties so extreme that the slider becomes pretty insignificant anyway.

Doing a uniform increase in difficulty is fine if that's what you want, but that would not solve your requests for immersion or realism.

No, they're separate issues, but both worth addressing.

It's more realistic to have Bosses be challenging (Faldorn, Bodhi, Irenicus, Firkragg), and have basic monsters fall quickly to heroes. The problem was when Bodhi fell faster than a Kobold, and Tactics helps to address this.

I'm not debating this. However, it seems too exaggerated in Tactics.

Besides, you appear to misunderstand Tactics, or perhaps have not actually played it.

Even with the strange assumption that I haven't played it, it wouldn't have been hard for me to read the readme and identify more general areas of improvement. However, see below.

Surely you didn't think that Improved Druid's Grove was easy and only Faldorn was hard? Tactics does not fix only singular bosses, it fixes entire classes of creatures, and hence: the entire quests and maps they inhabit.

But only SOME classes of creatures. As a result, I breeze through some battles, then come to some really hard ones which aren't even boss battles. That kinda contradicts what you say about it being the bosses that are logically made harder.

Tactics increases difficulty of many entire-maps of BG2: Druid's Grove; D'Arnise Keep not just Torgal is enhanced, but the upstairs fight also; any map with undead such as Unseeing Eye entire quest; any map with mind flayers such as lair in sewers and lair in Underdark; any map with mages which is perhaps 1/5 of the fights in the entire game; any map with Beholders; The Ritual entire map; and more.

That's a few maps out of the whole game. There are certain areas that it's still gonna be really easy to clear out in comparison, and that's not good.

Tactics does not increase the difficulty of kobolds, and you'll be so shocked and unimmersed when you leave Druid's Grove after 20 difficult fights with Spirit Trolls, and then beat a Kobold in 2 seconds. Hey, it's better than beating Druid's Grove in 8 seconds, followed by a Kobold in 2 seconds.

I don't believe so. I'd rather both kobolds and spirit trolls were slightly stronger. Or alternatively, the player was weaker, which is why I'm making the XP rebalancing mod.

I fully respect your desire for a mod that suits you. That is your choice. I want something more challenging than you want, is that alright?

From a more subjective point of view, then: there's a difficulty slider there. Not using it to its potential is bad design on both the part of Bioware and a mod-maker.

Tactics DOES make use of the difficulty slider on some encounters (namely, Improved Bodhi.) Weimer could do this more, if he wants to, but so far everyone on this thread only complained about the difficulty slider option. I really believe most of these people complained without actually trying the slider on Imp Bodhi.

Then there are the ones that it doesn't affect at all...

Pontifex, the guy at the start of Tactics The Ritual? He was hilarious. Very well-written and funny dialog. What's the problem with this? It was great.

Pontifex has good grammar, but that's about as well-written as it gets. Within the gameworld, it's utterly inappropriate. Breaking the fourth wall doesn't seem like something that is to be encouraged. Sure, things like Bondari are OMG FUNNY first time round, but serious role-players rapidly grow tired of that sort of encounter. Pontifex is no different.

Yes, it is. You're right. I don't recall anyone claiming that Tactics is a role-immersion mod. It's a tougher battles mod. This is what it is supposed to do.

No, it doesn't claim to add to immersion. On the other hand, it doesn't mention breaking it either, which is in reality what it does.

[Hank Parsons]

That's a few maps out of the whole game. There are certain areas that it's still gonna be really easy to clear out in comparison, and that's not good.

Tactics is on v20 (which is more consecutive improvements over a sustained work-period than most mods can claim). Some day it might cover the entire game. At this point in time, it fixes far more battles than any other BG2 mod.

You claim it is so few areas, but really BG2 only has about 14 major battle/quest areas, and Tactics improves almost all of them:

• Chateau Irenicus- Improved Ilych
• Athkatla - Improved Undead (A+ major improvement, finally makes skeletons in the graveyard some threat); 2 Major Lich encounters in the Docks (cool!); Illusionist in the Docks (A+ cool battle!); Acid Kensai (yields overpowered items); Improved Bodhi (under discussion; too exaggerated)
• De'Arnise Hold - Improved Torgal finally gives this map some worth, it was absurd before getting the Flail Of Ages that easily. This is one of Tactics best componants, A+.
• Windspear Hills - improved Firkragg
• Umar Hills + Temple Ruins - Smarter Dragons makes for a challenging, decent, fun Shadow Dragon. Another great victory for Tactics.
• Trademeet + Druid's Grove - Tactics completely overhauls this area and makes it fun at last. Until you get to Improved Faldorn, she is too exaggerated for me: Unbeatable legit?
• Brynnlaw + Spellhold - This part of the game sucks and needs to be improved. Yawn.
• Sahuagin City - A+ Tactics! One of the coolest componants of Tactics, the Minor Avatar Of Sekolah battle is one of the most fun battles in the entire game. This level sucked before, it rules now, I'd play Tactics for this encounter alone. And if it's unbeatable for your party, stealth around the side and avoid this battle: Player's choice, immersive, realistic.
• The Underdark + Ust Natha + 3 Lairs - Smarter Beholders, deadly Mind-Flayers, and drow and kua toa mages who actually use spells against you. I would say Tactics totally overhauls this entire part of the game.
• Small Teeth Pass - I haven't tried this Tactics encounter yet, but it does totally overhaul this useless area. Rumor is it is exagerrated, but I can't say til I try it.
• Noth Forest
• Forest of Tethir
• Suldanessellar - Smarter Mages again
• The Nine Hells Improved Irenicus should be the hardest battle in SOA, and it nearly is.

That's almost every area of the game!

That doesn't justify it breaking the immersion.

First, I disagree that it breaks the immersion. I was less immersed in the game when Azuredge kills a boss in one hit.

Can there not be some people who want immersive banters and NPC's, and others who want really-difficult battles? Yes, you can desire both in a mod, but as a mod-maker Sim Ding0 you know this does not happen by divine intervention: someone has to actually make the mod. Tactics is the best mod for what I want, that currently exists. It can be better, yes, but it is not the "horrible" mod that some people are afraid of.

"Very poorly" says it all. And Tactics bumps everything up to difficulties so extreme that the slider becomes pretty insignificant anyway.

You may have misunderstood what I said was poor. I was saying the Original BG2 Difficulty Slider is done very poorly, because it ONLY does what you've asked for: to make all enemies uniformly more difficult, by increasing the damage they do. Tactics is far more sophisticated enhancements.

The Tactics slider is implemented in Improved Bodhi. Did you try it? If so, which of Bodhi's powers did you notice reduced (or as you said: not affected) by the easier slider, and: was the "Easy" Improved Bodhi more acceptable to you? If Easy Improved Bodhi was still unacceptable to you, then which ability of hers was over-the-line in your opinion? <--Specific question to Sim Ding0.

However, it seems too exaggerated in Tactics.

I don't disagree that some battles in Tactics are too exaggerated. "Too exaggerated" is a very different criticism than: "unprofessional", "wrong", "unjustified", etc. These superlative criticisms are more exaggerated, unjustified, and out-of-line than the accused.

I don't believe so. I'd rather both kobolds and spirit trolls were slightly stronger. Or alternatively, the player was weaker, which is why I'm making the XP rebalancing mod.

Tactics did not make the Druid's Grove Spirit Trolls harder. It put them there. Are you knowingly misrepresenting what Tactics does, or have you not played Improved Druid's Grove lately?

I'm glad you are making the XP Rebalancing Mod. I have checked out your forum topic for it. I encourage you to make the mod that you like. However, I think it is not nearly as good as Tactics. It doesn't sound nearly as interesting or fun. I could easily set my XP's down with ShadowKeeper if that's what I want. I already limit my characters to reduce cheese for the player (me). Since XP Rebalancing is not released yet, you can hardly hold it up against Tactics.

Then there are the ones that it doesn't affect at all...

Such as?

Within the gameworld, it's utterly inappropriate.

Your criticism was reasonable before, but now you are displaying an ego complex. It is not your decision what is appropriate for other players. I think that Staff Of The Magi, Ring Of Gaxx, other items are inappropriate: For Me. I don't tell Bioware to remove them. I think that romancing Imoen is inappropriate: For Me. I think that Sola and Chloe NPC's are unrealistic, overpowered, and inappropriate for my game: Therefore I do not install them! Player's choice. I would never tell a mod-developer that they've made an "inappropriate" "unprofessional" "unjustified" decision in developing their own mod. That really sounds egotistical when it's coming from another mod-developer.

On the other hand, it doesn't mention breaking it either, which is in reality what it does.

It improves the immersive factor *in the battles* for me (not the role-playing aspect, but the believability that enemies are actually a threat). Even if it did break the immersion, do all your ReadMe files mention everything they DON'T do, or every criticism of its detractors? No. You tell what the mod DOES. Then the players can choose if they want it. You seem to not want me to have that choice.

[ 08-27-2004, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

[chimaera]

Originally posted by SimDing0: Tactics could easily be MADE immersive. It's realistic for the encounters to be difficult. It's not realistic for them to be inconsistent or done in ridiculous ways. So are you telling me you think a game without the immersion is better than one with it? [...] No, it doesn't claim to add to immersion. On the other hand, it doesn't mention breaking it either, which is in reality what it does.

Immersion is a very subjective matter - it depends on the player. It's "utterly inappropriate" to assume that it is the same for every player and must fulfill your definition of it.

[ 08-28-2004, 02:28 AM: Message edited by: chimaera ]

[Annatar]

Just don't play tactics or parts from it ( they are all installable or not, you can pick them last I checked )

Tactics is for the guys that have lost the spice out of SoA, it adds flavor to it making it really hard sometimes, I just LOVE it!

Breaking immersion or not... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Leslie]

My vote goes to Tactics mod.
A couple of battles with Improved Irenicus and Ascension on Insane were just (...looking for words) incredible, breathtaking, close to nervous breakdown, sweaty, kick ass enjoyable!

Ridiculously hard is only for the time until you learn the TACTICS!

I used to just click on enemies with vanilla SOA on Core. Now with Tactics on Insane I actually learned what most spells do and how to use them. And it's not so hard anymore. Tactics has a lot to do with defense and offense comes later. I assume that's the problem for most players. They just want to click on the enemy again and hope to win. Unless you protect yourself you are soon history. And yes, that is only possible for certain classes. So if you want to roleplay, you can: set difficulty to easy, uninstall Tactics or have a lot of reloads.

The way I see Tactics is - who is smarter: mr. Weimer or me? And it challenges me to win difficult fights. Many of them can be won with cheese (Spike Traps, Mislead backstabbing, Project Image abuse, ...) which of course many of us do just to win for the first time or two. But later (at least for me) I accept the challenge and play the game the way Weimer meant it. And even later I added the biggest roleplaying factor - no reloads. Now it gets really interesting. I enjoy these games immensely.