Improved (Current Version Tactics) Bodhi (Spoilers)

[Assassin]

This will be my last response to this thread. We're not getting anywhere. I'll read it, but there's nothing more to be served by me continually posting in here.

Okay, I'll admit that I was wrong in forgetting the IMO. Sorry. I already apologized before. But I assumed that since it was me posting, then it would naturally have the IMO tagged on it, since my posts are naturally of my opinion. Whoops. Would you like me to say that it's almost as, if not a worse approach to tell people to leave a thread?

You've managed to evade almost every single one of my points so far. I'm repeating myself because IMO , you aren't answering any one of my points!

No, I'm simply debating the mod here. I'm asking for some reason other than she's worth x amount of experience points, or that she's a boss, of why the heck she's immune to spells that affect damn near everyone else. I'm also saying that Lich's shouldn't be immune to Azuredge for no other reason that they're powerful. Every single enemy should have a weakness. Even Kangaxx has a weakness, and he's IMO as near-impossible (in regards to effective tactics possible to be used against him) as is probably ever going to happen within the game boundaries if you don't have ToB! (Well, excluding certain Tactics bosses *cough* ImprovedFaldorn *cough* *cough*)

If Dragons and the like were "near-impossible" to kill, then you'd have to buff them up a whole lot more than what Tactics does. Because, IMO , Tactics isn't about making enemies the hardest that they can be. It's about:

They all aim to make the game more challenging and rewarding by increasing the difficult (and thus the thought required) of encounters.

Now, maybe your eyes are sharper than mine, but I can't see anything in there about making anything 'near-impossible'. And near-impossible to beat is also relevant to the gamer.

Let me ask a question to all of you people: If someone made a mod that simply cut all experience and gold in the game in half and didn't change anything else, would you still use it? It would probably be just as hard, if not harder than Tactics. Imagine trying to fight the ToB boss with about half your normal level.

Well, that's my last post. I'm not going to run around in circles anymore.

[ 08-26-2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[SixOfSpades]

Whoops! Looks like I left this thread for the wrong ...uh...60 hours! Sorry.

I'll get the "personal attacks" out of the way first, and then get down to The Issues, and finally ramble on about Game Balance (whatever that is) at the end. And I've got to type all this on a keyboard with a wonky spacebar, dang it!

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Originally posted by Hank Parsons: Desire for a harder Bodhi should be a pre-requisite to participate in Tactics criticism. ..... uninstall Tactics: Improved Bodhi, and leave this thread so that people who actually enjoy it can discuss improving it.

Which would result in a chorus of yes-men going, "We all like it, the mod is perfect, harrumph harrumph," giving the modder a very skewed perspective of how his work is recieved by the public. Weimer's old forums, FWStudios, seemed to me to be full of powergamers, with very little input from anyone else, resulting in things like Improved Kitthix being "balanced according to your [gamers'*] specifications." Ironworks, on the other hand, traditionally has a more toned-down approach, and I get the feeling that most of us here frown on things like Sanchuudoku. Such polarizaion is, in my mind, a drawback to creative feedback.
* Weimer put up a survey at alt.games.baldurs-gate, and apparently based the power of the items on that survey. Now, that's all well and good, but where was an invitation to that survey announced? I don't recall anything like it being posted here on Ironworks.

Moral: Feedback does not come only from those who like something. Even a response as brainless as "This really sucks, change it," gives at least some indication that things like Red Badge, Improved Small Teeth Pass, and Shadow Thief Improvements are not all hunky-dory.


Link, perhaps your sig is causing you to appear supercilious and condescending in Hank Parson's eyes. "The only people worthy of being called In Charge" is rather blunt, you know. (Then again, my sig labels me as a homicidal maniac.)

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There is no such thing as a "Critical Save" or "Critical Fail" on Saving Throws. Get those Saves at 1 or below, and you will always make your Save--barring of course things like Greater Malison and Doom, and spells that impose a Save penalty. I realize that this has already been hammered out on this thread, but I also feel the need that Volothamp's Comeuppance says so as well. You think you can find an error in Volo's? Go ahead, I dare you (although there is at least 1): I'm compiling a list of changes for a 3rd edition.

1-hit-Bodhi: I suggested, way back on Page 3 now, that my ideal Bodhi "would have the standard Boss immunities of Hold, Charm, Death, and also Blindness and Turn Undead," etc. Death means death magic: Finger of Death, Power Word: Kill, Vorpal hits, Slay Living, and yes, Undead-slaying effects. Bodhi should still have good Saves, of course, but I'm not going to support cranking her Save vs. Death down to -20 (thus negating 1/3rd of all the spells in the game against her) simply because of two overpowered weapons that the player might not even be using.

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Azuredge and the MoD: Instead, I vastly approve of toning the Undead-slaying weapons way the f' down. I would start off by removing the Thrown component the standard Azuredge and making it confer NPP instead of enforcing a Save-or-die against Undead: Only the upgraded version has that quality. The same cannot be done with the Mace of Disruption because it is, of course, a Mace of Disruption. Now--it has been said in this thread that the "Save vs. Death or die" is equivalent to a 5% chance of instant death. This is true ONLY if the target has a Save vs. Death of 2. Most Undead, even Kangaxx, have a higher (worse) Save than that, with therefore a lower chance of survival. I would change the MoD and upgraded Azuredge to have a '5% chance with each hit of forcing any Undead target to Save vs. Death with a -4 penalty or die.'

Liches should be immune to instakill effects: Bull-puckey. This appears to be purely a powergaming concept, with no rationale for why a certain type of Undead creature should be able to ignore the enforced disadvantages of its race. Like Liches aren't already dangerous enough with their CC-bomb of Horrid Wilting, their spell immunities, their weapon immunities, and the risk of Imprisonment. As far as I'm concerned, if Liches are pretty much invulnerable to all parties under Level 15, and respectable enough to give anyone else a good hard fight, they're fine. Besides, you can't hit a Lich with the MoD or anything until their PfMWs are gone, and if you can survive that long, the Lich is already dead anyway.

Originally posted by Chimaera: And what is wrong with making the game simply harder? Why does it have to be realistic or given a reason?

I think some guy called Gygax has the answer to that one, and it's not simply because "It's too easy to kill everything with Celestial Fury."

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: Blatent disregard for laws of magic... (Response applies to the Fish Priestess, Imp. Bodhi, The Ritual, and probably others). When you see this, it's not always arcane magic, like you probably think at first. But in many cases, it's not a spellcasting of arcane magic, but rather it is a fact-of-life with this enemy. What you could call an "inate power" except that term already is defined in BG2 as the inate abilities, and this is different from that also. It's nature, it's part of their body or their natural abilities. In some cases such abilities appear to come from the enemy (Bodhi, Faldorn) but actually come from the venue, the room, the lair -- you hav to use your imagination a bit. For example, can't the Fish Priestess emit a Zone Of Sweet Air with no casting time? She's not casting a spell, she's whooshing this ability out of her blessed fish gills. It's ... sufficiently justified, why Imp. Bodhi would have numerous powers which are not actually spells ... these are abilities granted only to a supreme vampire. Such abilities are never accessable for the PC's, and I think that is what frustrates some people calling for "fairness", but no one said life-or-death battles should be equally matched. They're not equal in Iraq, they're not in a dark alley in New York, and this is not the Olympics.

You touch on three points here:
1) Special Abilities unique to that class or individual
2) Reasons why this attack cannot be defended against
3) "Fairly balanced" opponents, especially as relates to real life

And here I rebut:
1) I have no problem with certain creatures being able to do things that I cannot. When's the last time you heard me indignantly complain that "If Firkraag can still Wing Buffet after being Polymorphed into a squirrel, then why the hell can't I!?!" I agree that some creatures should have their own abilities that I can never use. All I ask is that the spells are either a) Defensive in nature, b) Blockable, and/or c) Make a whole lot of sense. (The Sahuagin Priestess creating a permanent Zone of Sweet Air just by breathing, however, is completely illogical on a creature that's supposed to breathe water.)
2) In the Ilyich thread running concurrently, I am postulating an enemy Conjurer named Kasparov, and with a name like that, how can he not cast "Chess Champion's Strength" at you, thus setting the STR of the targeted individual to 10. Now, by my own rules, this spell a) Is not defensive, but at least it's b) Blockable--it allows no Save, but it can be stopped by Magic Resistance, immunity to that Spell School, immunity to that Spell Level, the casting itself can be disrupted, Kasparov can be Silenced, and once the spell takes effect it can be Dispelled or overridden, by doing something like drinking a Strength potion. The spell also c) Makes sense, as Mages are making new spells all the time, and Gary Kasparov is himself the world Chess Champion. The only offensive abilities that are also unblockable (that I can think of at the moment) are Wing Buffet and Land War in Asia (there is no Save vs. the Fatigue), and both of those make sense. Bodhi's abilities, on the other hand, are too powerful and too spell-like to be considered innate abilities. The Cloud of Bats in question essentially renders any spellcaster completely impotent for a very long time, and its area-of-effect nature only compounds the problem. Therefore, it is wrong for Bodhi's abilities to be unblockable. It. Is. Wrong.
3) You are quite right, the war in Iraq is not fairly balanced. (The War on Terror is over -- Everyone Lost.) The Olympics might (and should) be fair, but life itself is not. Whoever says otherwise is either a damned fool or painfully misled. But this is not Life we're talking about, it's a scenario in a game, where the point is to create encounters that are challenging enough to give players a sense of achievement at having beaten them, but not so challenging as to make the player jaded and frustrated beyond all sense of pleasure after finally rolling a string of Critical Hits on his nth attempt. It is, essentially, a game where the goal is to create battles that are fairly balanced, and where the designers have failed if they have not achieved this equilibrium.

Originally posted by Hank Parsons: quote: Originally posted by chimaera: Well, some people like overpowered enemies beyond the realm of possibility.

Some like it hot. [/QUOTE]And some like enemies to be smarter and more realistic (always have Stoneskins up if you can, use the right spell for the right job) without being illogical cheaters ("Something just happened, so I can teleport party members I've never even seen right in front of me, so my Pit Fiend can tear them to shreds").

....Or is it just "Tactics is about creating tougher opponents, so let's grant Bodhi some special abilities to deal out"?

I'd like to draw a distinction here between what Tactics is about, and what I think Tactics should be about. The perfect example is Improved Beholders. Xyx scripted a smarter AI for them, where they know what the Shield of Balduran looks like and don't use their Rays on anyone wearing it, and they don't try to attack anyone who is supposed to be on their side, and they can hear their friends being attacked and come to their aid. Weimer took these Smarter Beholders and made the "Improved" Beholders by lowering their THAC0 by 10 points or so, gave them a nasty Poison to inflict with each hit, and gave the Hive Mother things like her infinite Chain Contingencies. There is a very real distinction between what the two modders considered "done," which correlates very nicely with the difference between making the "should-be-more-respectable" enemies more challenging and fun, and simply making them tougher.

[Hank Parsons]

^^ What he said.

SixOfSpades, I largely agree with. Even when he is "rebutting" me. (I don't find your statements to be incongruous or incompatible with my own, so it's not exactly a rebuttal, to me.)

There is a tendency in this discussion for people to make leaps in logic -- to draw extensions where they do not exist. "Oh, you think it's OK for Bodhi to have Cloud Of Bats? Then you must think it's OK for every monster to be worth half the experience points, and to use every cheese ever invented." This debate-tactic is absurd.

I am not such an extremist as that. I thought Imp Faldorn was too hard, and was not fun. I didn't install Imp Beholders, so I can't say on that - it sounds overpowered.

I happen to not think Imp Bodhi rises to that level. I think she's well done, and needs some tweaks to make better. Not perfect, but certainly not wrong or unjustified.

That doesn't mean I agree to the idea of making her succeptable to instant death from Azuredge, or d20's on-end from Sunray. IMO that is weak and wimpy, unrealistic, and underpowered for someone of her stature in the story.

In response to the talk about who should participate in the critical discussion: Should Democrats be allowed to attend and speak at the Republican convention? NO. They are fundamentally against electing a Republican. They have no say-so in how the Republicans structure their platform. Translation to Tactics -- If you want a mod that makes enemies harder, and you disagree with me or Weimer about HOW to make them harder: then post your constructive criticism here. I respect constructive ideas to improve Tactics. I respect alternative suggestions for making enemies more challenging. We are in the same "party" but with different opinions on the platform.

On the other hand, if you are a partisan who thinks that Bodhi is an average vampire with no justification for any special powers (it was said, in this thread), then you should not install Tactics and you should not harp on this mod ad nauseum. At that point it is nothing but a partisan crusade to enforce your preferences on others. The input of someone who wants normal-Bodhi is not relevant to the discussion of Tactics Imp Bodhi, as this mod is totally optional and the users are 100% self-selected. In the analogy, some people have showed up at the wrong party convention.

[Hank Parsons]

(The Sahuagin Priestess creating a permanent Zone of Sweet Air just by breathing, however, is completely illogical on a creature that's supposed to breathe water.)

Perfect. Thanks, Six. You have helped me rethink the storywise justification. Here you go:

If she breathes water, she cannot be affected by Cloud-based spells.

Again, what I am suggesting is: Do not always be bound to imagine the spells as arcane magic. Sometimes they represent effects that occur, without the literal connection to the traditional spell. If you think of this as "Zone Of Sweet Air - a windy cloud that dissipates Cloud spells" then it seems unrealistic for her to cast it with no casting time. Realize instead that the Fish Priestess breaths water and is unaffafected by Cloud spells -- and she has the natural ability to dissipate clouds within her underwater lair (she snorts mist into the air through her gills; she calls a wave up out of the pool to splash through the air removing all toxins; or the entire Fish City is actually underwater and "Breath Underwater" was casted on you by the Sahuagin guards when they captured you; etc.). These are very real possibilities in D&D, yet they are impossible to graphically represent in the game. Use your imagination. Imagination is a skill for RPG's.

[chimaera]

Well, since your party does not drown upon entering the Sahuagin city there is probably air around to breathe. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 08-27-2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: chimaera ]

[Link]

Originally posted by chimaera: Well, since your party does not drown upon entering the Sahuagin city there is probably air around to breathe. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

In defense of both Hank and the game itself: there was a spell cast upon you to allow you to breathe underwater (Hank stated that as well in his post).

~~~~~~~~

OK Hank I understand what you're talking about. You loathe people who just come and barge in the door stating "This mod sucks" and do not even try to suggest anything. Let me just make a suggestion then (I've done some research about Improved Bodhi, reading the Tactics README again for instance).

Taken from the Tactics Mod README: This component tries to make Bodhi a worthy opponent. Vampires are supposed to be scary. In BG2 they're only good for a laugh. Protection from Undead scrolls, Sunray (Daystar) and False Dawn make short work of them. A solo character with a Pro-Undead scroll can take out all of the Vampire covens in the game. Sigh. Bodhi is worth 91K XP -- more than almost anything else in the game. And yet she is a mere brute-force melee fighter who doesn't even drink healing potions.

Okay, I admit, Bodhi was a wimp when we first meet her. I posted a detailed list of events earlier in this thread with the question "is it justifyable for Weimer to make Bodhi the way he did in Tactics?". I thought it was not, and I still believe some of the component should at least be toned down to make the mod more realistic. If there are boundaries, you can move along the edge, but you should not break them IMHO.
The replies to that large post of mine were satisfying at the least; where I first believed that Bodhi had no justification whatsoever to change into Arnold Schwarzenegger on ostrogene, I changed my opinion to a more pragmatic one (including approval of some [toned done] special abilities], with a couple of suggestions;

• We know Bodhi is a Vampire Leader. So she she should be leading at least a bunch of vampires (even in Chapter Six she has to; if she can spare three vampires to accompany you to Brynnlaw, she has more than enough left). I know I've read Six stating somewhere that it would be nice if there were dominated slaves around (humans, elves, not vampires yet anyway). This gives some opportunity to stall the player (send in some low minions to allow Bodhi to take refuge in an area she likes best) AND serve as a healing probability for Bodhi (when she gets too low on hit points, she can kill off one of her 'pets' and feed on him.
• Instead of fighting Bodhi one time (an idea I've posted before), fight Bodhi multiple times. It's not that hard to imagine that sleeping in a vampire's lair would be a stupid thing to do (ambush!) so wearing out spells and abilities is a great way to make the fight harder in a tactical way. What I propose is the following:
  1) You enter the lair and fight of a couple of vampires, fledglings, some undead minions (Improved Undead?) before you get to Bodhi. Of course, this isn't the finale, so Bodhi has a little speach, and engages in some combat (with or without your loved one(s), I'm not too sure). If the going gets tough on Bodhi, she flees the scene leaving you to battle some of her tougher minions (Vampire Warlords, Vampire Mages, Skeleton Warriors). This short battle shouldn't bother Bodhi too much, so no special abilities just yet.
  2) After battling these undead, you travel ahead through the lair in the direction you have seen Bodhi flee (the spiked chamber?). There you meet Bodhi once more, maybe some of her friends with her (give them a couple of nice names, pump in some Vampiric lore [Suggestions: Morbius (vampiric creature in Spider-Man), but also Elizabeth Bathory and Gilles de Ray (both real historic figures)]. After a speech (or not) you engage in fight number two where Bodhi uses some of her Special Powers (but saves the best for last). Her friends can summon some undead if need be, and if the going gets tough once more, Bodhi turns into a bat and flees the scene to the downstairs area where the player and his party await the grand finale. Maybe add in that if you forget to stake Bodhi's named friend-vamps that you will have to face them again and you've got yourself a nice little fight.
  3) The Grand Finale. Bodhi hits you with all she gots (throwing in lesser minions to save her own skin, and using her most powerful Special Abilities). Once again; her 'pets' (see first bullet) can be used to heal her (make sure to get them too!!).
• So now we've seen my Perfect Bodhi Battle outlined. My last point concerns the Special Abilities Bodhi has. Quoted from the Tactics README:
  
  

  Taken from the Tactics README: As a vampire matriarch, Bodhi now has traditional mythological vampire powers. She can: * summon bats (cf. insect plague), * create darkness (cf.blindness), * move the earth to bury you alive (cf. slow, grease), * drain your life force (cf. vampiric touch), * summon chill winds (cf. horrid wilting) * and put you to sleep. These spell-like abilities are not arcane magic spells in the traditional sense, so your magic defenses may not work against them. Some of them do count as Necromancy, however. In addition, * her chilling flesh radiates a deathly cold aura (cf. fireshield: blue) that makes melee combat ... inconvenient.

  Summon Bats: instead of Insect Plague, make Summon Bats more like a Wing Buffet, a one time hit of a stream of angry bats that drive you back (not too much). Then you can even have No Save for such a thing.
  Create Darkness: good as it is.
  Bury Alive: while I don't agree with her abilities to make this happen, the effects are not that severe so no changes here either.
  Vampiric Touch: YES YES YES! They are Vampires! Drain their health, PLEASE!
  Summon Chill Winds: Again, I find this power hard to believe, and to make it a Horrid Wilting... Maybe you could change this Chill Wind into a Cone Of Cold? That would make more sense than Horrid Wiling IMHO.
  Fireshield Blue: Inconvenient aura is OK, but 2D6 damage is too much. I would tone it down to 1D6. That way you still make melee combat a nuisance (at the least) AND it won't be a damage too absurd.

I hope this gives you a general idea what I'm thinking about. I was in a bit of a hurry, so if things are not clear, please let me know [img]smile.gif[/img]

[JrKASperov]

Originally posted by Link: Vampiric Touch: YES YES YES! They are Vampires! Drain their health, PLEASE!

NO! NO! NO! Vampiric touch is a nasty spell, it has no save and always works AND does a buttload of damage so I suggest either of these two:
-She does this only once in ten rounds
-She drains health with her claws(which seems far more plausible to me, as DnD vampires do this) at a less radical level than Vampiric touch, maybe 1d4, like foebane. Anyway, this ensures you ahve some protection against her, low AC or some PFMW.

[chimaera]

Originally posted by Link: In defense of both Hank and the game itself: there was a spell cast upon you to allow you to breathe underwater (Hank stated that as well in his post).

In defense of realism - what do you think a full plate wearing warrior trying to swing a sword underwater would look like ? That's why I don't seek "realism" in BG2, even if it's based on rules. You cannot win in melee combat against a shark in water.

[Link]

I think the 'full plate in water' thingie wouldn't be the first of scientific impossibities in the game

[Feral]

(Then again, my sig labels me as a homicidal maniac.)

But one with good taste in furnishings.