People like this need to be put away....permanently

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Attalus: quote: Originally posted by Grojlach: Attalus, you *do* know that applying the death penalty to a person in the US is actually more expensive than to put him in jail for the rest of his life? Because of the expensive investigations, appeals, lawyers, you name it... I think we've had this discussion before (about 45 times, IIRC ), but I believe I've posted a link with the proof to back up my previous statement here on Ironworks about a year ago... I'll look it up one of these days if I get around to it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, yes, I certainly know that, but I was merely refuting the "just a few dollars" argument. My answer to the "expense" argument is that it is worth it to get rid of these people, permantly.[/QUOTE]Ah, it seems I could have saved myself the trouble of finding more info. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Rokenn]

Cerek, sorry to take this out on you, please do not take it personally. You are one of the few rational conservatives on this board...

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: Well I for one agree that murder and torture are a bad thing. The level of barbarity displayed in some of the 'Crime and Punishment' threads on this board is truly sickening at times.

Rokenn, I agree that murder - and especially torture - are "bad". However, it is the level of barbarity that is perpetrated in real life that sickens me. Yes, people on this board engage in some "venting" to help express their outrage at such heinous acts as the one described in the article; but the major difference is that the people here are only "talking" about inflicting pain and death on somebody - very few of them {myself included} would actually carry through with these threats.
[/QUOTE]Very true, but thoughts proceed deeds. And the more we dehumanize each other, the more likely we (as a society) are likely to follow through on such ideas.

However, the father in this case DID commit a horrific atrocity on a helpless infant. He deliberately injected an incurable and deadly disease into a BABY!!! Not because he was insane, but because he didn't want the responsibility associated with raising this child. Not only did his actions sentence his own flesh-and-blood to a tortured life and slow death - they also had a tremendously adverse affect on the mother, two sisters, and everyone associated with caring for the boy. All of this was done out of self-centered greed. THAT is a far more barbaric act than anything I have ever seen posted here. If you want to be outraged, then be outraged at the person who actually commits such "barbaric acts".

*sigh* this is the kind of sophomoric arguments I hate about this place. To EVEN insinuate that I think what the father did was in any way not an act of evil is highly insulting, and in my mind a passive/aggressive flame hiding under a veil of sympathy for the victim in this case.. Also my post was a general observation on the tone of the 'crime and punishment' threads on this board, not on this case in particular. Which I feel was clear in what I wrote.

Also, the only time you see these "barbaric" discussions is when the discussion concerns the punishment of somebody who actually committed some horribly barbaric act in REAL LIFE! So, if you want to be outraged, then be outraged at the heartless person who commits such an act rathter than those who just talk about it.

Not in every case, there have been cases as well were this 'blood lust for justice' has been spewed on only accused people. Like the case of the three med students that were thought to be terrorist traveling to Florida. In the aftermath of that case there was no clear cut evidence that they should have even have been under suspicion. Let alone measured, judged, and found wanting by the hanging judges of Ironworks.

Originally posted by Rokenn: Thankfully the founders of the US had the foresight to place a ban on Cruel and Unusual punishment in the Constitution.

Very true. What a pity they couldn't also ban malicious acts of barbaric cruelty on innocent victims.

As other posters have already stated we do have laws of this sort already. Besides the Constitution is there to protect the rights of the individual from the State. Not the other way around.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Cerek, sorry to take this out on you, please do not take it personally. You are one of the few rational conservatives on this board...

Ahhhhhhhh.....you're gonna make me blush. [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Very true, but thoughts proceed deeds. And the more we dehumanize each other, the more likely we (as a society) are likely to follow through on such ideas.

I'll have to meet you halfway on this one. I will agree that our society has become more "desensitized" to violence and the consequences of violent actions. There were never any stories of teenagers carrying guns to school and opening fire on their classmates 20 yrs ago. During the 90's, though, it became almost commonplace.

But I still believe that MOST individuals who express such thought are merely "venting their anger" and would not actually follow through on their actions - even if they had the chance.

Originally posted by Rokenn: "If you want to be outraged, then be outraged at the person who actually commits such "barbaric acts". *sigh* this is the kind of sophomoric arguments I hate about this place. To EVEN insinuate that I think what the father did was in any way not an act of evil is highly insulting, and in my mind a passive/aggressive flame hiding under a veil of sympathy for the victim in this case.. Also my post was a general observation on the tone of the 'crime and punishment' threads on this board, not on this case in particular. Which I feel was clear in what I wrote.

I sincerely apologize for the tone of that statement, Rokenn. I did not mean it as a flame in any shape, form, or fashion...but I can see now that the "insinuation" is there. I always try to treat everyone with respect, whether I agree with them or not, but I don't always succeed.

I have very strong feelings concerning the punishment of criminals who have murdered or tortured their victims and I have even stronger feelings against ANYBODY who harms a child in ANYWAY. As far as I'm concerned, NO punishment is too harsh for somebody who harms a child and I have no pity, sympathy or compassion for them in any way. I understand that is a terribly harsh view, but that is exactly how I feel. If I could, I would give them the EXACT same type of treatment they gave the child, so they could experience the same mind-numbing fear the child must have felt.

Unfortunately, such strong emotions sometimes leads to seeing things in black and white with no grey areas allowed. I should not have implied that you're disagreement with "torture fantasies" was the same as condoning the father's actions. I apologize again.

Originally posted by Rokenn: "Also, the only time you see these "barbaric" discussions is when the discussion concerns the punishment of somebody who actually committed some horribly barbaric act in REAL LIFE!" Not in every case, there have been cases as well were this 'blood lust for justice' has been spewed on only accused people. Like the case of the three med students that were thought to be terrorist traveling to Florida. In the aftermath of that case there was no clear cut evidence that they should have even have been under suspicion. Let alone measured, judged, and found wanting by the hanging judges of Ironworks.

To the best of my knowledge, I didn't follow that thread very much nor Reply there (at least I don't remember it if I did). While I don't believe the students should suffer any punishment for the incident, I do believe they are lying through their teeth about their remarks. I live in the South and I see all too often how many Northerners think we're nothing but a bunch of dumb country hicks. I firmly believe these three DID pull a rather stupid and sophomoric prank and tried to "freak the dumb country bimbo" out. I just don't think they thought it would go any farther than just scaring her.

{BTW, all the phrases in " " are strictly my own interpretative comments and/or observations and should not be considered a factual representation of anything they actually did or said}

[Attalus]

Originally posted by Rokenn: Cerek, sorry to take this out on you, please do not take it personally. You are one of the few rational conservatives on this board... Not in every case, there have been cases as well were this 'blood lust for justice' has been spewed on only accused people. Like the case of the three med students that were thought to be terrorist traveling to Florida. In the aftermath of that case there was no clear cut evidence that they should have even have been under suspicion. Let alone measured, judged, and found wanting by the hanging judges of Ironworks.

Actually, it is my understanding that those poor medical students actually did try and mislead that poor woman with a hoax, and IMHO deserved much more severe punishment than they received. I guess that I could add some snotty remark about liberals, but then I'd lose my shot at one day becoming "one of the few rational conservatives on this board..." [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Attalus: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: Cerek, sorry to take this out on you, please do not take it personally. You are one of the few rational conservatives on this board... Not in every case, there have been cases as well were this 'blood lust for justice' has been spewed on only accused people. Like the case of the three med students that were thought to be terrorist traveling to Florida. In the aftermath of that case there was no clear cut evidence that they should have even have been under suspicion. Let alone measured, judged, and found wanting by the hanging judges of Ironworks.

Actually, it is my understanding that those poor medical students actually did try and mislead that poor woman with a hoax, and IMHO deserved much more severe punishment than they received. I guess that I could add some snotty remark about liberals, but then I'd lose my shot at one day becoming "one of the few rational conservatives on this board..." [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]I watched a few of the post-event interviews with both the students and the woman that phoned in the tip. The students deny they made any baiting remarks and that she misunderstood what they were talking about. Since there were no cooberating witnesses and no trial, it boils down to a case of he said/she said. And under the american code of justice you are innocent till proven guilty.

edit:typos

[ 11-21-2002, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Rokenn ]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I sincerely apologize for the tone of that statement, Rokenn. I did not mean it as a flame in any shape, form, or fashion...but I can see now that the "insinuation" is there. I always try to treat everyone with respect, whether I agree with them or not, but I don't always succeed.

Thanks Cerek [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Sio]

This is really upsetting
I cant even comprehend what kind of person would do this to their own son, and I for one would love to personally crucify this man, this is possibly the worst thing ive ever read about in my life

[Leonis]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: Nothing wrong with that POV Leonis! You make good points. I don't think anyone who has a different opinion from mine is necessarily **completely** wrong. By definition, I don't completely agree with you, but I know I'm not perfect and am willing to listen. At least you were able to state your point without "talking down" to anyone. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Thanks Ronn [img]smile.gif[/img] We all make our way with the views and ideals we carry I guess. In many cases there's no singular 'right' but hopefully with with POV's from sane, honest citizens, ways can be found that benefit most. It's good when we can disagree well.
I listen as well, because I want to learn, and know that I can't possibly be the wisest person alive...(Could be the wisest guy though - no, that honour may fall to...
.
.
.MagiK!) j/k! - sorry a very poor segue I know...

Originally posted by MagiK: He is in gaol sucking up resources that could be feeding starving children in other parts of the world or even in the same part. Note: My anger and disgust is not directed at you Leonis or at The big E. But I do not want to live in a community of people that view these issues the way you two seem to. Cancers need to be killed, and this vermin gives cancer a bad name.

No worries MagiK,I didn't feel it was. I guess you probably do live in such a community though. Democracy *could* make it possible for us to live conscientiously in our respective areas. I wouldn't want to live in a country that has a death penealty, and you would. That's the beauty of voting etc...when it works [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I respect the feelings of everyone touched by this, whether I disagree with them or not. I have never had a child, or had any loved one murdered. I can only go off what I feel about the loss of those close to me through other circumstances.
I keenly feel your point - "Why do we not save our compassion and love for those who do not threaten society and innocent children? " - and let me be clear that I think this guy has commited the worst kind of evil. I would never defend him and his actions - they are abhorrant(sp?). We just disagree on what constitutes fair and just punishment, which is fair enough I reckon. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-21-2002, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Leonis ]

Originally posted by Leonis: - and let me be clear that I think this guy has commited the worst kind of evil. I would never defend him and his actions - they are abhorrant(sp?). We just disagree on what constitutes fair and just punishment, which is fair enough I reckon. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Your post had excellent points Leonis, I am just very (maybe over) protective of my children and my loved ones. I will happily slaughter these types of ..... beings .... to help ensure the safety of my family and friends. You are right about the beauty of voting [img]smile.gif[/img] The pacifists keep the violence mongers in check A kind of karmic balancing.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Jeffi0: BTW, so it's 50-60k. Even that isn't a huge amount of money- one or two taxpayers make up that difference. In a country of millions of people. My main point is that since we didn't give him life we shouldn't take it away, and he can't harm anyone locked up in jail. I've said that before though, and nobody but you is listening, so there is no point in saying it again. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [/QB]

Uh, it is nearly twice my yearly salary. To me, that's alot. I don't get free food, free tv and free medical care. I don't get to pursue a legal career or other education at no expense in a well stocked library instead of working 5 days a week. They don't have 'freedom' to come and go when they want anymore but the perks are sure nice for people who've broken laws and are a danger to individuals and society in many cases.

Just my personal mini-rant here! [img]smile.gif[/img]