Madness

Originally posted by dio_j: the "war" is obviously about oil! The same thing happened almost ten years ago when the us imperialism moved in the arab world trying to "invest" the arabs oil-money into american manufactured weapons. Us has no right to police the world. no one asked for their help in iraq, its all about their financial interests in the area, only the blindest of the blind can't see that. Anyway the most important thing for now is that it would be better for us to think a little before we accept everything that is said on TV or.... whoever, and to just what is behind "war on terror" or the "enslaved" people in iraq and other fancy "politician" words. I believe that all of us here are people with certain intelligence and we should not be treated, by our media and leaders, like lambs.

Dio, you obviously do not know your history. If the Iraqi thing was about oil the US whould have annexed Kuwait and Iraq in the early 90's when we had (with our allies) kicked the collective asses of the worlds 4th largest army. Timber Loftis had a nice write up of the historical facts in one of these threads, you should do a search for his stuff...it might give you a clue....I just thought that if you want to make some connection to oil, I guess you can after all. If there were no oil in the middle east...all the people there would still be ignorant camel hearders with no reason for other parts of the world to give 2 cents about.....and theywould not have had the money to research and/or build WoMD.

[ 01-12-2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Originally posted by dio_j: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Animal: How about, hmmm... NO ONE! Are you suggesting Saddam stays in office? i suggest that you should let his own people and history to deside about that you have no right being there in the first place you should look from major problems in your own country before "helping" others. So basicly when your tiny country was going to be pancaked by Nazi Germany, we should have left you to rot? Everheard of Civil War. I think those in the US are familiar with that term. Sure I have. But I dont think it would so much be a civil war as it would be a revolt. I dont think enough of the population supports Saddam for it to be two factions with significant numbers...I guess I could be wrong, but anyway...As I said, they have had 30+ years...20+ since the Iraq/Iran war, obvisouly they people of Iraq arent going to do jack shit for them selfs. Did you ever thing they might not want to? When is he going to invade Ireland? Last time I heard, Ireland wasn't on the verge of developing nuclear, biological and chemical weapons....besides there would be other options to use if Ireland was that kind of threat to the world. Probably never. Ofcourse he has no interestes there.And its not that easy to invade EU just like that. Not that we would...but what would stop us? The EU's huge army? or its tens of millions of well trained military members? What would stop us is that there would be no reason or justification for it. See if he does what? To see if he commits an act of terror..You said the US was going after someone who 'might' do something. Do you want to wait and see if he 'might'? Terrorism is about oppression of one nation on an other, the US has been dictating the world long enough and we are not taking it anymore.The first to revolt are the ones with the worst economic situation. Greece achieved its independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1829. During the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it gradually added neighboring islands and territories with Greek-speaking populations. Following the defeat of Communist rebels in 1949, Greece joined NATO in 1952. A military dictatorship, which in 1967 suspended many political liberties and forced the king to flee the country, lasted seven years. Democratic elections in 1974 and a referendum created a parliamentary republic and abolished the monarchy; Greece joined the European Community or EC in 1981 (which became the EU in 1992). Sounds like Greece is more of a dictatorship than the US. Ever wonder why? ....You know what, actually I havent. This dipicts how narrow minded you are. This depicts how rude you are. I didn't realize that the US was the world's police force. Really? I have heard us being accused, and playing the role, hunderds of times. US is the worlds police force but only where it suits them. They never helped small african states to get their "freedom" from local "tyrrants". Can you say South Africa? It was US led boycots that allowed this country to overthrow apartheid (along with boycots by other EU members). The US can choose where to bestow its gifts and help, and food...do you have any idea how many billions of tons of food the US has sent to "Small" african states to help the people? I believe at last estimate it was more than everyone else combined. DO you have any idea who spupplies the BULK of charitable giving WORLD WIDE as of the year 2000 (latest statistics available)? It aint Greece or the UN or the EU. But why are they thinking up terrorist plots in the first place?

Several reasons. Depends on what you want to believe. Sept 11th happened becasue OBL thought the us was invading Muslim holy ground or some such..We had troops stationg in varios parts of the Middle East for sure. It deepends on what side you want to believe I guess. [/QUOTE]The US doesn't have to mingle with other nations affairs. Its imperialism goals are very easily seen here and afterall as someone once said
"Imperialism is rotting capitalism" and capitalism especially in the US is not going very well in the last years, with over 2 million jobs lost and corporate trust shaken.

Even with our down economy over the last 2 years we are still doing better than pretty much anyone else in the world. Millions of people each year risk eveyrthing to come here, I would say that the US is in good enough shape.

[/QB][/QUOTE]If the US had ANY imperialistic goals or was on any kind of epire like expansion we would currently be the owners of Iraq and Kuwait, and would have been so for more than 10 years after that brief 100 hour ground scuffle in '91.

[Animal]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by dio_j: the "war" is obviously about oil! The same thing happened almost ten years ago when the us imperialism moved in the arab world trying to "invest" the arabs oil-money into american manufactured weapons. Us has no right to police the world. no one asked for their help in iraq, its all about their financial interests in the area, only the blindest of the blind can't see that. Anyway the most important thing for now is that it would be better for us to think a little before we accept everything that is said on TV or.... whoever, and to just what is behind "war on terror" or the "enslaved" people in iraq and other fancy "politician" words. I believe that all of us here are people with certain intelligence and we should not be treated, by our media and leaders, like lambs.

Dio, you obviously do not know your history. If the Iraqi thing was about oil the US whould have annexed Kuwait and Iraq in the early 90's when we had (with our allies) kicked the collective asses of the worlds 4th largest army. Timber Loftis had a nice write up of the historical facts in one of these threads, you should do a search for his stuff...it might give you a clue....I just thought that if you want to make some connection to oil, I guess you can after all. If there were no oil in the middle east...all the people there would still be ignorant camel hearders with no reason for other parts of the world to give 2 cents about.....and theywould not have had the money to research and/or build WoMD.[/QUOTE]Ignorant camel hearders? Well since we have resorted to racial slurs I feel it necessary to depart from this thread lest some things be said that would be regretted.

[Iron_Ranger]

Wow Dio, I didnt know you knew we well enough to insult me like that. Maybe we should have let the Germans over throw Hitler all by themselfs and let them right their own history?

The US never helped small afican countrys get there independance? Uhh, I guess I just dreamed up the whole Somalian thing. Of course we didnt finish the mission because of the genius Bill Cliton.

They might not want too? Well they that makes a shit load of since doesnt it? I mean after all, people love being opressed and starving and not being able to have an opinion of there own!

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: They might not want too? Well they that makes a shit load of since doesnt it? I mean after all, people love being opressed and starving and not being able to have an opinion of there own!

For the most part, many do believe that they have opinions of their own. They believe that their way of life is good, and pure, and that they are giving themselves to the fight against an infidel evil. It is the same the world over. If, from birth, you are taught to believe that your way of life is free and right, chances are that that is exactly what you will come to believe in adulthood, regardless of outside argument. Many do not believe they are being oppressed, they have had no other way of life to compare this 'oppression' to. Not everyone is raised with a western style of education, and condemning people for their place and society of birth....well, it just doesn't feel right. Not to insinuate that that is what you are doing, just that there are many different ways of life in the world, each with their own pros and cons, it can't hurt to try looking into how others live instead of dismissing them outright as being backward or ignorant.

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: They might not want too? Well they that makes a shit load of since doesnt it? I mean after all, people love being opressed and starving and not being able to have an opinion of there own!

For the most part, many do believe that they have opinions of their own. They believe that their way of life is good, and pure, and that they are giving themselves to the fight against an infidel evil. It is the same the world over. If, from birth, you are taught to believe that your way of life is free and right, chances are that that is exactly what you will come to believe in adulthood, regardless of outside argument. Many do not believe they are being oppressed, they have had no other way of life to compare this 'oppression' to. Not everyone is raised with a western style of education, and condemning people for their place and society of birth....well, it just doesn't feel right. Not to insinuate that that is what you are doing, just that there are many different ways of life in the world, each with their own pros and cons, it can't hurt to try looking into how others live instead of dismissing them outright as being backward or ignorant.[/QUOTE]Would these be the same Iraqi's that took every opportunity to seek out unarmed americans to surrender to? The ones who raced to get away from SH and his regime?

[Timber Loftis]

Iron Ranger, just to note: Somalia was a mistake - the US should not have gotten involved to begin with. That debacle was so silly that it was fully half of Colin Powell's platform when pushing for the Powell Doctrine Bush Sr. had him come up with in the 80s. You should check it out to see why missions like Somalia suck: Unclear orders and goals, mission creep, failure to use absolutely overwhelming force, etc.

As for the ongoing notions that this war is about oil - or that the first was about oil - they are uninformed. At least to the extent they suggest that to America it is about oil. I detailed quite a nice history of the causes of the first war, and if you haven't bothered to read it then don't blame me for ignoring your uninformed rantings which stem from media blurbs you've heard more than history you've actually investigated.

As for US imperialism, the US has never sought nor wanted an empire. The US, more than any other country, has willingly freed just about every piece of land it's ever gained dominion over. Again, read your history. American imperialism actually ended at the Pacific Ocean, when Manifest Destiny was fulfilled. We happen to sit on one of the nicest largest most untouched pieces of real estate on the planet, and we don't need more land. Plus, who needs the headache of managing an empire? The US model is to liberate, babysit, and then move out when democracy is established. Yes, like all nations the US tries to garner good deals with other nations and it strongly pursues its interests. But an empire - puh-lease.

Finally, MagiK sorry to pick on you but you quoted 15 or so lines just to post 2. Was that necessary? No worries, just making a humble suggestion to keep thread size (page numbers) down.

[ 01-13-2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Iron Ranger, :::SNIP to keep the thread shorter::: etc. It is a perfect axample of how NOT to use a military. The military is not a police force, it is not a welfare distribution network, nor a humanitarian delivery vehicle. Militaries Kill people and break things...PERIOD! Thats what they are for. As :::SNIP to keep the thread shorter ::: investigated. Amen brother preach it! As :::SNIP to keep the thread shorter::: puh-lease. Outstanding!!!! Good post TL! I might even have to form a fan club Finally, MagiK sorry to pick on you but you quoted 15 or so lines just to post 2. Was that necessary? No worries, just making a humble suggestion to keep thread size (page numbers) down. This any better?

[Timber Loftis]

All right MagiK, not-so-subtle hint taken. Sorry for being anal about the post sizes.

[Cloudbringer]

A couple of notes here- PLEASE remember that each of us is entitled to an opinion, but we are NOT entitled to make those opinions known in a rude or insulting fashion. Keep the size of your quotes reasonable (that's for everyone, MagiK and Timber, not just you! ) and try and remember that overgeneralized negatives will have a negative impact on many of your readers.

Thus it is a good idea to avoid statements like "All people from X are stupid cow breeders" or "all Y's want fascist domination of the world!" Obviously there will be exceptions to any such statement and over-generalizing can seem harsh or inflammatory.

Ok, carry on! [img]smile.gif[/img]