Madness

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: quote: Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Have you ever read Dune? Remember the parts about the Spice when Paul is saying that He who has the power to destroy a thing.. controls that thing..

But only IF that someone is ready and/or willing to destroy it!!!! [/QUOTE]Are the American people ready to use their unprecedented Nuclear Arsenal against the people of the Earth?

EDIT> Who has the power to destroy the thing?

EDIT AGAIN> Is Spice Oil?

[ 01-11-2003, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: quote: Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: quote: Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Have you ever read Dune? Remember the parts about the Spice when Paul is saying that He who has the power to destroy a thing.. controls that thing..

But only IF that someone is ready and/or willing to destroy it!!!! [/QUOTE]Are the American people ready to use their unprecedented Nuclear Arsenal against the people of the Earth?

EDIT> Who has the power to destroy the thing?

EDIT AGAIN> Is Spice Oil?[/QUOTE]It was your quote, I was just clarifying it.

The US isn't willing to destroy the world's oil supply in order to control it because the US isn't trying to control the world's oil supply. Saddam, on the other hand, was more than happy to torch every oil well he left behind during the Iraqi retreat from Kuwait. He was trying to control it in an "if I can't have it, no one can" approach.

I'm not quite sure what it has to do with Americans being ready to nuke all the other people of the Earth though. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

Since, your post was in direct response to a comment about Saddam trying to control 25% of the world's oil supply with the aggression that led to the Gulf War, I assumed you were equating spice with oil. If not, why did you quote Timber?

[ 01-11-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Animal]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Animal: One wonders how, if "the Intelligence services around the world don't publish daily bullins for YOU and I to read," you would know that "dozens of shipments of 'proscribed' equipment for creating nuclear, chemical and biological weapons' are being caught. Maybe we should burn him at the stake or make him walk the plank?

First off [img]smile.gif[/img] I am rather better connected than you. Secondly, the shipments of equipment that have been intercepted have been publicized, they just didn't make the front pages of the morning news...some times you have to turn past page 1 and the comic section.

As for burning at the stake or walking the plank....Im not sure where you are coming at for those comments to apply. The US is already doing what it thinks is best for the situation. Personally I don't care what actually happens to saddam, I just want the country put in a position where WoMD are not a primary interest and maybe food for the people is. [/QUOTE]You mean there's more in the newspaper than comics? How long has this been happening?
I also believe that the US is doing what THEY think is best for the situation, but what gives the them the right to determine what is and isn't the best course of action for a seperate nation. I also agree with you about a country putting food for it's people first, but we should be worrying about food for our own people first. Instead of spending hundereds of thousands of dollars a day to torment Iraq, spend the money to feed and house the thousands of people starving and homeless in our own countries, then worry about what the Jones' are doing.
I don't care what happens to Saddam either. He's none of my concern. If he wants to kill his own people, then it should be up to his own people to do something about it, not us.
I find this whole situation in the Middle East quite odd. The whole purpose was to hunt down and bring Osama Bin Laden to justice, something that needs to be done, yet the focus seems to have shifted off of Osama and onto Saddam. I am quite sure that the hunt still continues, yet more effort is directed at Saddam, for something he *might* do. I thought the whole principle of freedom was 'Innocent until proven guilty,' but it seems that when Saddam is concerned it's 'Guilty until proven innocent.'
In my eyes the whole war on terrorism is a little misguided. The US and it's allies are pursuing a *possible* terrorist. Sure in the past, he's been a bad boy, granted, but honestly what has he done lately? There is no (at the time I write this) hard, solid proof that Saddam is doing anything to put the world in jeporday (sp?). It's akin to witch hunting and the "Better of dead than red" mentality of the cold war.
The question has to be asked, how did all of this start? We were somewhere that we shouldn't have been, and had no business being there, but to act as big brother to the world. Perhaps, some nations don't want our "help."

[Djinn Raffo]

I was equating spice with oil.

But on the power to destroy a thing i was thinking of the world. All those nukes could destroy the Earth.. but only if the powers that be were willing to use them like you said..

Paul didn't mention if they were trying to control the thing.. but if they could destroy it!

Are the powers that be willing to use them?

[ 01-11-2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

[Ronn_Bman]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Are the powers that be willing to use them?

Let's hope not.

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Animal: [/qb]

You mean there's more in the newspaper than comics? How long has this been happening?
I also believe that the US is doing what THEY think is best for the situation,

If the US isnt going to do it who is? Canada?

but what gives the them the right to determine what is and isn't the best course of action for a seperate nation. I also agree with you about a country putting food for it's people first, but we should be worrying about food for our own people first. Instead of spending hundereds of thousands of dollars a day to torment Iraq, spend the money to feed and house the thousands of people starving and homeless in our own countries, then worry about what the Jones' are doing.

Agreed 100%

I don't care what happens to Saddam either. He's none of my concern. If he wants to kill his own people, then it should be up to his own people to do something about it, not us.

They have had 30 years to do something about Saddam, they havent yet. Even if they want to, how are they? Have an impeachment trail? Not likley.

I find this whole situation in the Middle East quite odd. The whole purpose was to hunt down and bring Osama Bin Laden to justice

I am not sure thats entirley true. When Bush made the (in)famous Axis of Evil speech he said clearly he was going to hunt down terrorist world wide and those who habor them, never once can I recall where he said he was just out to disruot Al-Quida

, something that needs to be done, yet the focus seems to have shifted off of Osama and onto Saddam. I am quite sure that the hunt still continues, yet more effort is directed at Saddam, for something he *might* do.

Do you really want to wait to see if he does it? I sure as hell dont.

I thought the whole principle of freedom was 'Innocent until proven guilty,' but it seems that when Saddam is concerned it's 'Guilty until proven innocent.'

I would assume gasing your own people would be enough to prove you guilty. Ok but that was years ago right? Why didnt we take him out when we had the chance in the early 90's? I sugggest you talk to the UN about it, Bush Sr. wanted to 'complete' the mission, but the UN woulndt allow it.

In my eyes the whole war on terrorism is a little misguided. The US and it's allies are pursuing a *possible* terrorist. Sure in the past, he's been a bad boy, granted, but honestly what has he done lately? There is no (at the time I write this) hard, solid proof that Saddam is doing anything to put the world in jeporday (sp?). It's akin to witch hunting and the "Better of dead than red" mentality of the cold war.

Ok, so if the police are hunting a serial killer that cometted a crime 10 years ago and havent found him yet is it ok to let him go? The crime was years ago. Time doesnt justify crime, domesticly or internationaly.

The question has to be asked, how did all of this start? We were somewhere that we shouldn't have been, and had no business being there, but to act as big brother to the world. Perhaps, some nations don't want our "help."[/QB][/QUOTE]

Perhaps they dont. Maybe we should bring all of our troops back to the US, and let hostile nations go unpoliced. That should give them alot of space and time to think up terrorist plots.

[dio_j]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Animal: quote: Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: Hmm, isnt it kind of hypocritical too say you hate war and human disasters and be agaisnt the war in Iraq. I dont believe we are waging war just for the hell of it, or for oil, or because Bush wants payback. I believe we are attacking Saddam Hussien because he is an evil man who has killed alot of innocent people, and might kill more at will anyday, anytime. Its like having a stormy day and watching the weather and they say there is a tornado warning and not taking heed. But then its also hypocritical to to attack Iraq because you want to prevent innocent civlians dieing, becaue as horrible as it is, we all now there is going to be some screw ups and non-militants are going to die. But I believe it will be better for long term. Just my two cents.

The power of the press at it's finest.
The conflict in the Gulf during the last two decades has been about one thing: OIL
There are a lot of evil people in the world, doing evil things. Look at the number of hate crimes, murders, rapes etc... in any country at any time.
Bush would like the world to think that his is doing this for humanitarian reasons, but I really, really doubt it.

If thats what you like to believe, be my guest.

Take North Korea lately for example. If reports are to be believed they are developing weapons of mass destruction faster than Iraq, yet the focus is still on Iraq. Why? Because there is no oil in North Korea.

But you know what there is in Korea? Nuclear facilitys and a really big and capable army. Do you support action in North Korea? Wouldnt that be a bigger human disaster? Two well trained armys that are pretty willing to rip each others throats out.

I think if the politicians themselves where holding rifles on the front lines of combat, we'd see a lot less "police actions" for humanitarian reasons.[/QUOTE] We would also have no leaders. I dont think all this is about oil. We have oul right here in the US. We can buy oil for Russia, Saudi Arabia and a host of other countrys. Was Desert Storm about oil? Partly, it was also partly, a bigger party about defending Kuwait. [/QUOTE]the "war" is obviously about oil!
The same thing happened almost ten years ago when the us imperialism moved in the arab world trying to "invest" the arabs oil-money into american manufactured weapons.
Us has no right to police the world. no one asked for their help in iraq, its all about their financial interests in the area, only the blindest of the blind can't see that.

Anyway the most important thing for now is that
it would be better for us to think a little before we accept everything that is said on TV or.... whoever, and to just what is behind "war on terror" or the "enslaved" people in iraq and other fancy "politician" words.

I believe that all of us here are people with certain intelligence and we should not be treated, by our media and leaders, like lambs.

[Animal]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Iron_Ranger:

If the US isnt going to do it who is? Canada? How about, hmmm... NO ONE!

They have had 30 years to do something about Saddam, they havent yet. Even if they want to, how are they? Have an impeachment trail? Not likley. Everheard of Civil War. I think those in the US are familiar with that term.

I am not sure thats entirley true. When Bush made the (in)famous Axis of Evil speech he said clearly he was going to hunt down terrorist world wide and those who habor them, never once can I recall where he said he was just out to disruot Al-Quida When is he going to invade Ireland?

Do you really want to wait to see if he does it? I sure as hell dont. See if he does what?

I would assume gasing your own people would be enough to prove you guilty. Ok but that was years ago right? Why didnt we take him out when we had the chance in the early 90's? I sugggest you talk to the UN about it, Bush Sr. wanted to 'complete' the mission, but the UN woulndt allow it. Ever wonder why?

Ok, so if the police are hunting a serial killer that cometted a crime 10 years ago and havent found him yet is it ok to let him go? The crime was years ago. Time doesnt justify crime, domesticly or internationaly. I didn't realize that the US was the world's police force.

Perhaps they dont. Maybe we should bring all of our troops back to the US, and let hostile nations go unpoliced. That should give them alot of space and time to think up terrorist plots. [/QB] But why are they thinking up terrorist plots in the first place?

[ 01-11-2003, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Animal ]

[Iron_Ranger]

Originally posted by Animal: How about, hmmm... NO ONE! Are you suggesting Saddam stays in office? Everheard of Civil War. I think those in the US are familiar with that term. Sure I have. But I dont think it would so much be a civil war as it would be a revolt. I dont think enough of the population supports Saddam for it to be two factions with significant numbers...I guess I could be wrong, but anyway...As I said, they have had 30+ years...20+ since the Iraq/Iran war, obvisouly they people of Iraq arent going to do jack shit for them selfs. When is he going to invade Ireland? Probably never. See if he does what? To see if he commits an act of terror..You said the US was going after someone who 'might' do something. Do you want to wait and see if he 'might'? Ever wonder why? ....You know what, actually I havent. I didn't realize that the US was the world's police force. Really? I have heard us being accused, and playing the role, hunderds of times. But why are they thinking up terrorist plots in the first place?[/QB]

Several reasons. Depends on what you want to believe. Sept 11th happened becasue OBL thought the us was invading Muslim holy ground or some such..We had troops stationg in varios parts of the Middle East for sure. It deepends on what side you want to believe I guess.

[ 01-11-2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Iron_Ranger ]

[dio_j]

Originally posted by Iron_Ranger: quote: Originally posted by Animal: How about, hmmm... NO ONE! Are you suggesting Saddam stays in office? i suggest that you should let his own people and history to deside about that you have no right being there in the first place you should look from major problems in your own country before "helping" others. Everheard of Civil War. I think those in the US are familiar with that term. Sure I have. But I dont think it would so much be a civil war as it would be a revolt. I dont think enough of the population supports Saddam for it to be two factions with significant numbers...I guess I could be wrong, but anyway...As I said, they have had 30+ years...20+ since the Iraq/Iran war, obvisouly they people of Iraq arent going to do jack shit for them selfs. Did you ever thing they might not want to? When is he going to invade Ireland? Probably never. Ofcourse he has no interestes there.And its not that easy to invade EU just like that. See if he does what? To see if he commits an act of terror..You said the US was going after someone who 'might' do something. Do you want to wait and see if he 'might'? Terrorism is about oppression of one nation on an other, the US has been dictating the world long enough and we are not taking it anymore.The first to revolt are the ones with the worst economic situation. Ever wonder why? ....You know what, actually I havent. This dipicts how narrow minded you are. I didn't realize that the US was the world's police force. Really? I have heard us being accused, and playing the role, hunderds of times. US is the worlds police force but only where it suits them. They never helped small african states to get their "freedom" from local "tyrrants". But why are they thinking up terrorist plots in the first place?

Several reasons. Depends on what you want to believe. Sept 11th happened becasue OBL thought the us was invading Muslim holy ground or some such..We had troops stationg in varios parts of the Middle East for sure. It deepends on what side you want to believe I guess. [/QB][/QUOTE]The US doesn't have to mingle with other nations affairs. Its imperialism goals are very easily seen here and afterall as someone once said
"Imperialism is rotting capitalism" and capitalism especially in the US is not going very well in the last years, with over 2 million jobs lost and corporate trust shaken.