"Religion stops a thinking mind...it is only another socially acceptable addiction."

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Look, I meant the other churches you ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH. Mormons, etc. What do THEY call THEMSELVES.

For crying out loud!!!

Do I have to post the list every time I want to describe the Christian churches in agreement with one another??

That is why we use ONE WORD to describe us all "Christian".

Mormons are not affiliated with that list!!! This is the heart of the confusion!!

Do you not see it is an attempt for validity on the behalf of the founders?? It wouldn't matter if we (the list I provided) were called any name, the Mormons would have called themselves that for ACCEPTANCE within a very harsh and judgemental American society. Look at how they were hounded, Why they moved to Salt Lake City.

The fact is, the majority call themselves a word to describe themselves when speaking of their unity rather than their division. That word being "Christian." [/QUOTE]No, you don't have to provide the list. I understand your group and that it calls itself what it does.

I was simply curious if Mormons considered themselves Christians. Do they? I think you indirectly answered that with a "yes."

Oh taking Americans and defining it as UniAmericans totally misconstrued everything I said. I'm beginning to think you're purposefully playing dumb and playing the word game to bait me. No one can be so dense as to misread these last couple of simple posts this way.

Anyway, once again I need a vacation from this thread. Maybe I'll look back later tonight.

In the meantime, I hell the ice on the refrigerator in the doormat to scorn spadidles at fog lions Ramses, ergo twist rock drop kittens so the swarm blankets according to winged seraphs at Bifrost. And if you disagree, you're completely wrong. I'll be back later to define all those words as I see fit.

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: Uh ...... Yorick, I was raised Catholic and I've never seen the line you highlighted in the Proclaimations of Faith. Also, the phrasing is much different through out. Just a point to show that people may disagree, but actually believe the same thing. Kinda like when people keep on argueing long after they agree that they are agreeing with one another.

It's the Nicene creed Nightstalker. I can't help whether you encountered it or not, but it's a backbone of Roman Catholic doctrine, as much as it is Protestant doctrine. Read up on what the Nicene creed is if you can't believe me. Do your own research on it. [/QUOTE]I am quite familiar with the Creed. As you you stated, it is a staple of the Catholic Church. All I am saying is that I have never encountered that one particular line in the Creed.

It appears that Church Dogma is polymorphic .... to suit as needed.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Likewise, you can't force them on us. We speak in categorical terms sometimes -- Democracy, Christian, Americans, etc. Any of these words which defines categories can have some ambiguities as to exactly what specifics they encompass -- an Aussie in New York is free to say he is not "American," even if he has become a naturalized citizen, because his roots are different and he considers himself Australian until death. However, he can't force that terminology on the rest of the world -- as a naturalized citizen he fits the commonly-accepted understanding of what an "American" is. Words simply have commonly-accepted meanings. When I encounter the fact that I am using a word in an uncommon way, I usually modify my usage. But, what you are doing here is insisting your usage is correct, and we must all accept it. Now, frankly, I would not normally consider Mormons if someone said "Chistian," and I agree with you in spirit. However, if I investigated and found out that Mormons consider themselves Christian, I would not presume to tell them they aren't.

I simply cannot agree.

There is a dispute going on about the word Macedonia. There is also a dispute going on about China.

In the case of Macedonia, you have Macedonia, the part of Greece, home of Alexander the great and the traditional Macedonia.

You also have Macedonia, the part of former Yugoslavia that was given the saem name by Tito I believe, in an alleged attempt to one day make territorial claims over Greek Macedonia. To UNIFY Macedonia one day.

However, the Greek Macedonians are Greek, and the Yugoslav Macedonians are Slavic.

The "what's in a name" issue is very important to those within the noun, because it shapes the perceptions of people outside the noun.

Macedonians are, and always have been a Hellenic people.

But the new Macedonia is not Hellenic. Now, though Greek Macedonia is only a territory, the Yugoslav Macedonia is a NATION. The stakes rise.

I'm not sure what ended up being resolved. Some called Yugoslavic Macedonia "Skopje" after the capital, other "Fyrom." (Former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia).

Either way, the long gone Tito suceeded in sowing the confusion he intended.

Whose opinion do we respect? The original or the newcomer?


China is similar. We have the Peoples Republic of China, and the Republic of China. Whom do we call China? Both? What if we wish to distinguish between the two?

The majority are the Peoples Republic of China, so we have called that "China" The minority we have called "Taiwan". Clarity..... based on what the majority call themselves.

See? It works.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Faceman: I guess what Timber meant to say was: "What do the other by your definition non-Christian churches call them?"

Mormons do not share union with any other group, so we call them Mormons, or LDS Latter day Saints. Their offical name is
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

What is wrong with calling them that? Latter Day Saints? That is what they exclusively call themselves.

Jehovahs Witnesses are the same. They do not share any affiliation with Latter Day Saints or with Christians, so why not simply call them "Jehovah's Witnesses?"

In using the word "Christian" to describe them, the word is being expanded upon in a confusing manner and ignoring the context in which the majority of Jesus followers call themselves, and in the process removes a descriptive noun for the list of churches and people I provided earlier.

No clarity. Confusion.

[ 11-12-2003, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Night Stalker: Uh ...... Yorick, I was raised Catholic and I've never seen the line you highlighted in the Proclaimations of Faith. Also, the phrasing is much different through out. Just a point to show that people may disagree, but actually believe the same thing. Kinda like when people keep on argueing long after they agree that they are agreeing with one another.

It's the Nicene creed Nightstalker. I can't help whether you encountered it or not, but it's a backbone of Roman Catholic doctrine, as much as it is Protestant doctrine. Read up on what the Nicene creed is if you can't believe me. Do your own research on it. [/QUOTE]I am quite familiar with the Creed. As you you stated, it is a staple of the Catholic Church. All I am saying is that I have never encountered that one particular line in the Creed.

It appears that Church Dogma is polymorphic .... to suit as needed. [/QUOTE]Why would the Roman CATHOLIC Church take out a line of the Nicene creed (first adopted by the Roman Catholic Church) proclaiming belief in one Catholic and Apostolic church?

Is it so hard to accept maybe you didn't notice it?

Every time I have been in a Roman Catholic Church, they have actually recited it. So my experience of the Catholic Church is that it is there and used.

[ 11-12-2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Larry_OHF]

You really get worked up about this, don't you, Yorick?

Just because we don't show up to some meeting that your group thinks is important does not mean that we no longer can associate ourselves with those that profess to follow the teachings of the Savior.

All churches in the world that call Christ the Founder of thier religion share one common denominator. Whenever I am required to fill out a survey of some type that asks for my faith, "Christian" is the one that I am required to mark, as that tells the person reading the paper something about me and my beliefs.

What is so funny is that I can no longer be upset at your rants about us being outsiders...because I just now realized that MAYBE your superiors in your faith do not agree with what you are printing here. Maybe you are a rogue Christian that will someday form his own church based on what you believe.

Guess what? Our President of the Church knows the Pope very well, and has spoken with him on occasion. I have heard him speak with kind words regarding him. With some work, I bet I can find proof that at least the Pope recognizes Mormonism as Christians, even if you do not.

I am sure everybody will agree on whose opinion would mean more. Do I have to go to such lengths to disprove you? Would it matter if your own Religious Superior told you that we were Christians?

Knowing what I do, even Angelic Visitations have not always helped convince a person whose heart is hardened to accept truth.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by Yorick: Why would the Roman CATHOLIC Church take out a line of the Nicene creed (first adopted by the Roman Catholic Church) proclaiming belief in one Catholic and Apostolic church? Is it so hard to accept maybe you didn't notice it? Every time I have been in a Roman Catholic Church, they have actually recited it. So my experience of the Catholic Church is that it is there and used.

Err Hugh, firstly I have to ask you: please remember that you're not on the-forum-that-shall-not-be-named here... you're among nice people! Relax, mate, you sound so fierce and defensive. Multiple friends of yours have said so, you don't need to feel like it's a battle or something. Really mate

But that said, I think you're totally right in this case, sorry NightStalker, that the line you two are fighting about is not so controversial at all. I'm not at all versed in the ways of the Catholic Church but I am versed in classical music.
I've recently sung Mozart's Coronation Mass and visited a performance of Rossini's Petite Messe Solennelle. Both feature a Credo, in Latin of course, but they both distinctly carry the line
"et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam
confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum"

[ 11-12-2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

[Night Stalker]

Well, I never said the line was controvertial. In fact, now that I stretch my memory waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy back, I do remeber the phrase from one of my earlier parishes. Then, at a different parish, it was omitted. I remember that being odd at the time .... then it was just normal.

Anyway, my point was less about the line itself, and more to the polymorphic nature of dogma to serve local needs.

What is interesting is that you are willing to accept my faulty memory (which happened to be the case) over the possibility that the Creed had morphed from locale to locale (which was also true )

Anyway, we are arguing about agreeing over fighting about ..... uh ..... who's on first? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: You really get worked up about this, don't you, Yorick? All churches in the world that call Christ the Founder of thier religion share one common denominator. Whenever I am required to fill out a survey of some type that asks for my faith, "Christian" is the one that I am required to mark, as that tells the person reading the paper something about me and my beliefs. Guess what? Our President of the Church knows the Pope very well, and has spoken with him on occasion. I have heard him speak with kind words regarding him. With some work, I bet I can find proof that at least the Pope recognizes Mormonism as Christians, even if you do not.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...stianity.shtml Christianity and the Latter-day Saints "Are we Christians? Of course we are! No one can honestly deny that." "We may be somewhat different from the traditional pattern of Christianity. But no one believes more literally in the redemption wrought by the Lord Jesus Christ." "No one believes more fundamentally that He was the Son of God, that He died for the sins of mankind, that He rose from the grave, and that He is the living resurrected Son of the living Father." President Gordon B. Hinckley In recent years the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has moved to emphasise that is distinctively Christian. In 2001 the church decided that in writings it should be called first by its full name - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - and then in later references called the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is certainly Christian to the extent that Christ is at the centre of its beliefs. Individual Mormons try to live their lives following the teaching and example of Christ. The Mormon View Mormons believe that conventional Christian churches have lost the authority of God. They believe that conventional Christian beliefs are a mixture of the truth and of errors that have been added over the centuries. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose on the third day. They believe that there would be no salvation without his atonement. They believe Christ will return to earth to reign and rule. The Conventional Christian View Traditional Christian belief is contained in the creed as interpreted by the various denominations over the centuries. The teaching of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints differs from the creed in so many places that many traditional Christians say that Mormons are not Christians. Some of the Differences * The Trinity * Other Christians believe that God is a single entity consisting of 3 persons. * Mormons believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate beings who together make up the Godhead. * God * Other Christians believe that God is a spiritual being who has existed for ever, and has never changed. * Mormons believe that both God the Father and Jesus Christ were once mortal men who became gods. * Other Christians believe that God has no body and is only spirit. * Mormons believe that God has a physical body. * Other Christians believe that there is only one God. * Mormons believe that there are many gods in many universes. * Mormons believe that human beings can eventually grow to become gods themselves. * Jesus Christ * Other Christians believe that Jesus Christ was conceived without sexual intercourse through the intervention of the Holy Ghost. * Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the physical son of God the Father. * The Church * Other Christians believe that the conventional Christian churches are the true representation of the historical tradition of Christianity. * Mormons believe that their church is the 'restoration' of true Christianity. * Scripture * Other Christians believe that the scripture consists of the Bible. * Mormons believe that the scripture consists of the Bible plus the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. Attitudes of Other Christians In recent years both the Vatican and the policy-making body of the United Methodist Church have decided that Mormons must be rebaptised when converting to Catholicism or Methodism. This shows that the Roman Catholic Church regards Mormonism as varying in its essential beliefs from traditional Christianity. It does allow members of most Protestant and Orthodox churches to convert to Catholicism without being rebaptised. However Mormons require that everyone be baptised when they join their Church, no matter what background they come from. One difference in the two concepts of baptism is that the Roman Catholic church states that baptism remits original sin as well as personal sin, and that as Mormons do not accept the idea of original sin their idea of baptism is different. Mormons believe people are baptised for the remission of their own sins.

[ 11-12-2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: You really get worked up about this, don't you, Yorick? Just because we don't show up to some meeting that your group thinks is important does not mean that we no longer can associate ourselves with those that profess to follow the teachings of the Savior. I am sure everybody will agree on whose opinion would mean more. Do I have to go to such lengths to disprove you? Would it matter if your own Religious Superior told you that we were Christians?

And who is my group? My group are Anglicans, Baptists, Pentecostals... they are Christians. Christians all over the world meet in interdenominational meetings that Mormons don't attend. Catholic, alongside protestant. Pentecostal alongside evangelical.

My group is all "other christians" other than Mormons or Jehovahs Witnesses or sects that claim they are the exclusive representation of Christianity.

As to a religious superior... what is that? I have no religious superior. Jesus is my high Priest. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All Christians are equal Larry. No superiors.

[ 11-12-2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]