Same sex marriages. Your opinon? Volume two.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Ah, but a religion only is evidenced by its manifestations. Muslinism may be a peaceful religion, but many Muslim leaders pervert it to evil ends. YOUR take on your religion may be absolutely good and wonderful, but remember that YOUR list of CORE VALUES of the religion is YOUR list. Others have made the their list to include many atrocities, all in the name of God, osbtensibly. So, if you want to cite the "good" churches who use Christianity and the Bible as YOU see proper, I am perfectly free to remind you that there has been a large number of misuses over time as well. I'm simply saying that you should not purport to comprehensively espouse the full range of virtues and core values of the religion unless you are willing to somehow work all the atrocities into your fold as well. Otherwise, your statements do NOT apply holistically to the religion and its core values, but rather only apply to you and how you see/interpret those core values.

Wrong. A religions ideals are verifiable independently from the manifestations of those who claim to follow it. In this way you CAN ascertain who DOES follow the religion, and who doesn't. Otherwise anyone who claimed to be a Muslim would be, even the atheist who eats pork. It makes a mockery of using descriptive language.

Some Christians lives measure up to the teachings held in the Bible. Imperfect, but clearly aligning with what is written given allowances for individual interpretation and human failings.

Others clearly do not. They either totally misundertand it, or are using it for political ends.

Islam, to bring up your example, is a wonderful example, because it TEACHINGS advocate violence, as Martyrdom is the only assurance a Muslim has of salvation. A "peaceful muslim" living in harmony with Jews and Christians and friends, advisors and confidantes is expressly living a life at odds with recommendations held in the Qu'ran and Hadith.

You cannot simply look at the followers or you will not have a true understanding of a particular faith. You have to look at the teachings. And then at the initial exemplars. Then, you look at the followers. You see what matches up. It may be the resultant faith of the practitioners is so divergent from the initial teaching it has to be called another name for qualification.

Hence the myriad names within organised religions, from Mahayana Buddhism, to Wababist Islam, to Qaker Christianity.

[Timber Loftis]

By Yorick: Islam, to bring up your example, is a wonderful example, because it TEACHINGS advocate violence, as Martyrdom is the only assurance a Muslim has of salvation. A "peaceful muslim" living in harmony with Jews and Christians and friends, advisors and confidantes is expressly living a life at odds with recommendations held in the Qu'ran and Hadith.

This goes against everything I have recently read or heard about the Muslim religion. Maybe this is another thread. Nevertheless, I offer this up to you, and to others -- IS THIS A VALID STATEMENT YOU'VE MADE?????

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: By Yorick: Islam, to bring up your example, is a wonderful example, because it TEACHINGS advocate violence, as Martyrdom is the only assurance a Muslim has of salvation. A "peaceful muslim" living in harmony with Jews and Christians and friends, advisors and confidantes is expressly living a life at odds with recommendations held in the Qu'ran and Hadith.

This goes against everything I have recently read or heard about the Muslim religion. Maybe this is another thread. Nevertheless, I offer this up to you, and to others -- IS THIS A VALID STATEMENT YOU'VE MADE????? [/QUOTE]Of course it is. I have read the Qu'ran and the relevent passages of the Hadith. I have compared them to the actions of suicide terrorists and found that in the light of such teachings, suicide terrorism actually makes perfectly logical sense. They are not lunatics devoid of reason, but following a particular line of thinking quite clearly seen in the Qu'ran and Hadith.

It is politically correct to pronounce Islam as a religion of peace - which it is to a degree - and gloss over the aspects I am talking about.

I have a pragmatic view that if that serves to enhance world peace, so be it. Bring it on. I also find it wonderful that a Muslim can have Christian friends. I dated a Mulsim girl, and may do so again soon. However, they are RECONCILING certain passages. Much as a Christian who goes to war is RECONCILING certain passages forbidding such activity.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Moiraine: John, can you guarantee that my home will never been made unsuitable for life for centuries from the fall of an atomic bomb ? Can you guarantee that the air I breathe, the water I drink, the cereals I eat are and will remain free of pollution ? That the engineered products used to grow crops present absolutely no danget to human health ? No ? Then you and I do not control progress, we merely are subjected to it. And suffer its unexpected consequences.

Humans do control al those things you listed. The only way to insure that none of those things will happen is to go back to the stone age. Personally that won't effect me much I'm a country boy and can hunt, fish, and grow my own food. I can build a shelter and a fire.

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Great way to cut through the fat and make a point, Donut. It is true, the Natural/unnatural argument was about whether homosexuality was "natural," but somewhere along the way go flipped on its ear to become a discussion of how completely "natural" behaviors are eschewed by the "higher minded" human species. On that note, I'd like to comment to John D., Morainne (what a way to escape a debate ), and Yorick. Yes, humans are dominant. No, they are by and large not responsible. And, while they have developed differently than other animals, there is no reasonable argument they are "better," "more advanced," "superior," or "more evolved." In fact, they may be inherently lesser, as humans are capable of deliberate evil, whereas all other species are basically instinctual and, ergo, innocent. I certainly think Dolphins are socially, and perhaps intellectually, superior. Tho opposable thumb and oversized brains are great tools, but we have turned them by and large toward more evil ends than good ends. Maybe we have used them to make some great advances for the species, but we have also used them to subjigate a large percentage of the species. And, all the while we have been decimating other species. Anyway, I know this may bother a lot of (most of) you folks, but I just wanted to point out that I take exception to all of the "superiority" talk when it comes to humans. I think we are at best slightly inferior and, at worse, not worth anything much at all.

Humans are not by and large responible? What do you mean by that? If humans are not responible then why did you even bother learning eviromental law to argue cases before Dolphin's courts? Or maybe the Grasshopper's courts.

As for the superiority of humans over the animals, I don't see many computers designed by dolphins, have dolphins or any other animal come up with even the most basic rules of math? What animal has the ability to wage war on man because they want too? What animal has the ability to invent the DMV (Dept. of Motor Vehicles) and it's glorious lines? What animal cares for it's sick or weak? "Hale" the "Majestic" wolf routinely attacks and kills the weaker members of the pack. What animal has sculpted a statue? created a painting? And don't give me the Crap about that ape some animal Pshycologist gave a paint brush to and some colors then the pshycologist called what the ape did art. "Hale" I have a dog that I could give paint brushes and paint to but would that make it art not on your life. What animal has the ability to convey ideas, concepts, feelings other then the base instincts of food, territory, and the desire to pass on thier genes?

I would agree that most people aren't worth squat, but that's not my job to decide which ones are and which ones aren't, though I would be happy to accept the job if you people wanted me to take it.

[johnny]

originally posted by Yorick It is politically correct to pronounce Islam as a religion of peace - which it is to a degree - and gloss over the aspects I am talking about.

Bwah

Actual Quotes from the Koran
The Muslim Bible commands Muslims to murder all non-Muslims:
"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

You call THAT a peaceful religeon ?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by johnny: You call THAT a peaceful religeon ?

No I don't. I said it was POLITICALLY CORRECT to call it that, and it is to a degree.

I of course stated that the Qu'ran had such verses as you have posted.

Were you aware we were in agreement?

[Chewbacca]

This site addresses many veiwpoints of war and peace from a Muslim perspetive.

http://www.submission.org/war.html

Here is a snippet on the section titled Islam's call for peace

In international law, there is a set of well-established rules concerning the obligations of nations toward each other in times of war and peace. The first of these is that a country should base its relations with other countries on terms of peace so that it may exchange benefit and cooperate with others in order to promote humanity to utmost perfection. Peaceful ties like these, they say, should not be broken except in extreme urgencies that necessitate war, provided that all peaceful steps have failed in terminating the cuase of dispute. This is what Islam has always been working for, and the relations of Moslems with others are primarily based on peace and confidence. Islam refuses the killing of people merely because they embrace a different faith, nor does it allow Moslems to fight against those who disagree with them on religious questions. It urges its followers to treat such people kindly: [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. In another place, God says: [4:90] ........ Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them. We also have: [8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. Instructions like these pave the way for the establishment of peace, and go in harmony with the present tendency to set down principles that call for the abolishment of war. Islam, in fact, makes of peace a special greeting which Moslems exchange whenever they meet by saying, "Peace be unto you" (Assalamu 'Alaykum). The Moslem also utters this statement at the end of every prayer.

It seems the Koran is a multi-faceted and somewhat contradictory as the Bible.
To characterize Islam as a violent religion would be just as false as characterizing it as a religion of peace. Individual Interpretation also comes into play, not to mention the interpretation of any writing passed down through out the ages.

[johnny]

originally posted by Yorick Were you aware we were in agreement?

Guess not. It's kinda late here, maybe i should hit the sack. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I know there are also passages in the Koran that ARE peaceful, but after reading the above passages, i don't buy any of it.

Especially lines in the trend of "cutt off their heads" and "ask ransom", sound more like the words of a buccaneer to me, than those of a holy man.

[True_Moose]

I don't buy for one second that Islam is a purely peaceful religion. Almost every religion I can think of (except for possibly Buddhism) has passages of violence. Does that mean it is necessarily a violent religion? No. The Bible has lots of violence, and yet I don't see many extremely religious Christians committing incredibly violent crimes. The problem is those who get it all wrong (Nazis, Al-Qaeda, Crusaders, we all know the types.)

Violence is rooted in human nature. For a holy book to ignore it is to deny a facet of human existance, and since holy books are meant to explain, such an omission would be extremely harmful to the proliferation of said religion. [img]smile.gif[/img]