3rd Edition rules a turn off?

[Madriver]

While I value highly the opinion of Mr. Gygax and will be forever grateful for creating a passion of mine, I will have to disagree with his interpretation of 3ED rules.

As far as multiclassing is concerned, I think the new system is a little more realistic (as much as possible anyway..in a fantasy world). Playing the old rules I always found it a little funny that I couldn't multiclass dependant on race and class restrictions. If you relate it to todays professions, why can't an engineer go to school and learn a little about art or pottery? I think the decision to multiclass is even harder in the new rules because you will be sacrificing levels and gained skills in the original class, which is especially hard for wizards and clerics, that much longer to get the new spells. There are also severe penalties for multiclassing too much, besides just a very slow advance in abilities.

Racial class restrictions I always thought were ridiculous...why can't a dwarf be a wizard? Adventurers are always above average members of society to begin with, and there will always be a few who are not the norm and will want to go against the usual stereotypes for their race.

As for fighters learning spells, this must be in reference to multiclassing, because paladins and rangers can cast spells in all versions. And fighter feats are far from spells, they are just skills learned by using their weapons so much, like what happens in every sport in real life. Maybe you can call a basketball hook shot a feat, or a running back doing a spin move to avoid a tackle.

I've been playing a 3ED campaign recently and I like it so far, everything is very balanced. For every benefit that a certain class gets there are also disadvantages. There are no Super-Heroes, eberything is played as a party. For example, our cleric and thief might not make it to the next session and we might postpone it because we will be without too many skills.

I'm sure the decision to revamp the rules was money oriented, but that doesn't mean the result is not good. Most games eventually go through some kind of modification, it's a natural process. Stagnation is bad.

.....I like the changes and can't wait to see them implemented in NWN. Give it a shot before you dismiss them completely, you never know, they might grow on you, and then the next version will piss you off again. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[CTHULHU007]

Mr. Gygax only has 30-40 years experience on you rpg'ing and he only CREATED THE GAME. I geuss he mistaken in his interpretation of the (new game) ...yeah....O.K. LOL. He has no care to make opinions based on grudges about the new system I am quite sure. In fact I'm fairly sure he doesn't give a damn as he's totally emersed in his new projects.
Gary Gygax created a game that was fun and totally balanced for roleplaying. That game is now dead for most. Replaced by a game that is not fun, not balanced, and definitely not good for PnP RPG'ing. These are undisputable facts to many old gamers. You say stagnation is bad. AD&D was not stagnating. There was new material until the company was stolen from the creator. Then old material was reworked to make it appear new. Now they aren't just selling the old material too you they are selling a new gaming system using Gary's material to fill in the holes..BAH. DAMN THEM.
You show me you either haven't been paying attention to the arguement or your just ignoring the facts because you love 3rd ED so. This arguement is useless. One cannot very well argue with a fence post can one? I will remain loyal to the old game. You will play this new game which is not D&D. Enjoy it if you wish but do not argue about the old game being bad. Basic and 1st Edition AD&D were by FAR superior to the 3rd ED nightmare in every catagory. This is a fact. To you they weren't. You obviously didn't grasp many things about the game that made it what it was...the greatest RPG ever created. It shows in your posts.
Many old gamers will remain true to the old game and no amount of whinning about 3rd ED being a better game will convince us otherwise. It is DD&D Diablo Dungeons & Dragons. Play it if you wish...but do not ask me too.
End of line.

P.S. It will never grow on me. I have an idea for the next edition of real D&D though after DD&D dies out...Classic Edition which would be first edition with maybe new spiffy cover artwork lol [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-29-2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: CTHULHU007 ]

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally posted by CTHULHU007: [QB] .... Replaced by a game that is not fun, not balanced, and definitely not good for PnP RPG'ing. These are undisputable facts to many old gamers. Basic and 1st Edition AD&D were by FAR superior to the 3rd ED nightmare in every catagory. This is a fact. QB]

Cthulhu ... these are NOT facts, but opinions. You're more than welcome to your opinions. But so are WOLFGIR, MADRIVER and the other folks are willing to try something new. Stick with the first edition rules if you prefer those. No one is denying you that option. But don't dismiss us as "fence-posts", "ignorant" or any other label you choose to give us just because we don't agree with you.

PS: And for all the sympathy you express for poor downtrodden Gary Gygax, what about the way he treated the co-founder of the pre-cursor rule set for D&D? Back in the REALLY early days, before D&D was really D&D, and consisted of a loosely formed set of rules, published in pamphlet form. I believe his name was Jim Arneson.

[Galadria]

LOL, Micah, I actually heard Gygax holding forth in a bar one night, and you wouldn't have believed... Will pm you on this.

[Micah Foehammer]

ROTFL ... can't WAIT to read THAT! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[CTHULHU007]

They ARE facts to me and many other loyal gamers. I accept your OPINION that they are not..lol [img]smile.gif[/img] .
I already stated I was sticking to 1st ED..like glue. I've called no one ignorant. I've stated many are misguided...or never truely grasped what made Advanced Dungeons & Dragons the great well balanced RPG that is was/is. I've noticed a trend with most 3rd ED lovers. They worry about THEIR character...THEIR customization...THEIR restrictions, THEIR power...more so than group roleplaying which is what AD&D was made for. It's an all for one all for one attitude. Of course one cares about their character and his abilities, but one also must care about group play. What good is group play when your character can "do it all". It's perfectly obvious in some of these posts.

The person you are thinking of is Dave Arneson. What about him? Perhaps you think Mr. Arneson would have created AD&D without Gary. Let me see...I think NOT. He co-authored many things with Gary back then and created some material such as Blackmoor by himself. Gary is the creator however. Do not disrespect the creator...it is disgusting.

Again..arguing with fence posts..I must stop this [img]smile.gif[/img] .
Play your DD&D if you wish. It's your money.

[Madriver]

Originally posted by CTHULHU007: Mr. Gygax only has 30-40 years experience on you rpg'ing and he only CREATED THE GAME. I geuss he mistaken in his interpretation of the (new game) ...yeah....O.K. LOL. He has no care to make opinions based on grudges about the new system I am quite sure. In fact I'm fairly sure he doesn't give a damn as he's totally emersed in his new projects. Gary Gygax created a game that was fun and totally balanced for roleplaying. That game is now dead for most. Replaced by a game that is not fun, not balanced, and definitely not good for PnP RPG'ing. These are undisputable facts to many old gamers. You say stagnation is bad. AD&D was not stagnating. There was new material until the company was stolen from the creator. Then old material was reworked to make it appear new. Now they aren't just selling the old material too you they are selling a new gaming system using Gary's material to fill in the holes..BAH. DAMN THEM. You show me you either haven't been paying attention to the arguement or your just ignoring the facts because you love 3rd ED so. This arguement is useless. One cannot very well argue with a fence post can one? I will remain loyal to the old game. You will play this new game which is not D&D. Enjoy it if you wish but do not argue about the old game being bad. Basic and 1st Edition AD&D were by FAR superior to the 3rd ED nightmare in every catagory. This is a fact. To you they weren't. You obviously didn't grasp many things about the game that made it what it was...the greatest RPG ever created. It shows in your posts. Many old gamers will remain true to the old game and no amount of whinning about 3rd ED being a better game will convince us otherwise. It is DD&D Diablo Dungeons & Dragons. Play it if you wish...but do not ask me too. End of line. P.S. It will never grow on me. I have an idea for the next edition of real D&D though after DD&D dies out...Classic Edition which would be first edition with maybe new spiffy cover artwork lol [img]smile.gif[/img]

I understand your defense of a game that you love, but that doesn't mean you can blindly defend it and insult anyone who thinks otherwise. I don't think I'm whinning at all, I've been describing differences that I like and explaining why. On the other hand, you barely give an explanantion and just resort to DD&D as the end-all to every argument.
It's all about opinions and I bet that 90% of the "old time gamers" are playing 3ED right now, me included (I meet alot of them at the Living Greyhawk campaigns).
I've played 3ED and the group dynamic is there just like before...sigh...I don't know where this comes from.
Bottom line, it's subjective according to peoples tastes, I like it and you don't.
There was an article about the origin and evolution of D&D in Dragon magazine (I think) last year, it was very interesting. I never knew about all of the fighting between the creators before.

[Micah Foehammer]

Cthulu .... yes you are right, it was Dave Arneson.

Nothing in 3rd edition PRECLUDES a true group co-operative spirit. NOTHING! If some players choose to play in an "all for one", to heck with the party attitude, that is a personal choice and NOT one forced upon them by the 3E rules. I've seen the same thing happen in countless PnP 2E games and 1E games as well! The trend away from role-playing is unfortunate, but NOT a function of the rules but the manner in which PLAYERS choose to utilize them. There is a wealth of roleplaying options in the 3E rules, IF you are up to the challenge.

And Gygax and Arneson were CO-creators. To ignore Dave's contribution is to ignore the FACTS. Stay with your 1E or 2E rules if that is your preference. I think its your loss, not mine. But then I'm just a fence post so you can dismiss MY opinion out of hand.

[CTHULHU007]

"I understand your defense of a game that you love, but that doesn't mean you can blindly defend it and insult anyone who thinks otherwise. I don't think I'm whinning at all, I've been describing differences that I like and explaining why. On the other hand, you barely give an explanantion and just resort to DD&D as the end-all to every argument.
It's all about opinions and I bet that 90% of the "old time gamers" are playing 3ED right now, me included (I meet alot of them at the Living Greyhawk campaigns).
I've played 3ED and the group dynamic is there just like before...sigh...I don't know where this comes from.
Bottom line, it's subjective according to peoples tastes, I like it and you don't.
There was an article about the origin and evolution of D&D in Dragon magazine (I think) last year, it was very interesting. I never knew about all of the fighting between the creators before."

I have not "blindly" defended anything. I do not comprehend how you can say I have been blindly defending it. Reread the posts. Do you want me to argue about every single little thing in DD&D ? Yes I coined a term...DD&D. So I intend to use it in reference to the new game from now on. It is perfectly fitting for it...like a glove. Again if you want some points I think you need to actually read all the posts again. Is thou blind???

Aye yes 3rd ED as I already stated before has destroyed the majority of the Player and DM base for 1st OR 2nd ED. You do not have to rub it in. After all many would see this as the only thing they could do being as it's forced down their throats by WOTC...convert to 3rd ED or your left out in the cold. It's sad.
Your right it's a question of taste...and perhaps class. 3rd ED is sour and fetid to me..that will never change. Do what you wish. Like I said. It's your money.

[ 04-29-2002, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: CTHULHU007 ]

[Madriver]

OK...maybe if enough of us fence posts unite we can become an actual fence!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cthulhu...I will enjoy playing, and have recently. 5 sessions and about 30 hours later and we're just breaking into level 3...so power gaming it is not.
Good luck and thanks for the debate.