Opinions about Oversight mod's monk HLA (are they overpowered?)

[Alson]

Originally posted by daan: Now if you'll excuse me, I've just wasted 80 perfectly good seconds I could have used to further barricade my house *crawls off*

Better cast some Protection from Fire, too.

Now, I wonder... will SixOfSpades be unbelievably flattered or extremely furious when/if he'll read this? Let us join hands in prayer, daan, that it's the former.

/ducks

Tenses were always my weak side in English... but apostrophes, on the other hand, weren't. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 05-27-2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[daan]

[img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img] Stop replying to this topic you maniac ! [img]graemlins/nono.gif[/img]
It takes long enough for a post in the ToB-section to go down,.. I still have a chance of surviving this [img]graemlins/hidesbehindsofa.gif[/img]

[Alson]

Fine.

/waits for the thread to sink a bit before he could, to daan's horror, bump it back up.

[Nerull]

Hmmm...not too many opinions on the subject. Is it because not too many people have installed the mod?

[jcompton]

It is a fairly new project but it's got a healthy and growing download base. It's just taking a little time to spread the word, I guess.

[SixOfSpades]

BOO!

As for the bulldog line, daan....canine imagery aside, you're absolutely right. Of course, being a "Vigilant Defender of Roleplayer's Rights" is only a front for my egotistical desire to tell other people what to think (oh, did I just type that out loud? I hope not), so think for yourself before you take my anti-powergamer rantings as gospel. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for the Oversight Monk HLAs, I haven't installed them yet and therefore can't give judgement on them now. I will say, however, that what Monks needed was not different HLAs, but different kits. I'm sick and tired of every single Monk being exactly the same--the only real difference is gender.

Now, my opinions on the Oversight HLAs, as filtered through the Rumor Mill:

• Dimension Door: On the whole, I'm against it, mostly on the grounds that it can disrupt triggers, and potentially allow the Monk to travel through walls. While I can see a high-level Monk making a fantastic leap from the ground on to the roof of a building, jumping through walls (or locked doors) doesn't make sense. People won't use it to get out of a tight spot (due to the casting time), the only reason they'd take the HLA is to jump obstacles--such as the obstacle that prevents you from entering the Monastery until you've beaten Sendai and Abazigal.
• Immunity to Petrification and Level Drain: Why the hell not? Of course, the Monk is almost certain to Save vs. Petrification anyway, but Monks are notorious for being especially vulnerable to Level Drain. And, of course, there's the fact that Level-draining enemies are rather rare in ToB.
• Immunity to Time Stop: I am against ItTS in general, simply because your enemies aren't scripted to be prepared for that contingency. Consider Demogorgon: If you're fast enough, you can kill him during his Time Stop, because he knows that you're locked in time--so he takes his time summoning a bunch of demons, instead of defending himself against the Monk that's pounding his backside. (Interesting thought--the HLA grants immunity for four rounds. Can the duration expire during a Time Stop?)
• Stances: If they're like Balthazar's, they sound interesting. I didn't like his "Sunfire," though.
• Zippy Speed: Why not? Although it does seem odd...."Hey, Lo Min! I didn't mean to fire that arrow at Imoen--could you go and catch it for me, before it hits her?" "Sure thing!"
• Removed Greater Whirlwind: Why? If anyone can dish out a large amount of attacks in a very short time, It's much more likely to be an unarmed combatant than a guy using, say, a Crossbow.
• Stunning Blow that ignores Saves and MR: Overpowered. Duh.

-----------------------------------------

Just off the top of my head, things I'd add to the Monk HLA list....

• Monks have no ranged combat except with Slings & Darts, which don't really fit the idea of the Monk. It'd be neat if they had a "Cobra Fist" ability, which would allow them to punch the air and have the concussive force travel all the way to the target--something like the Ring of the Ram.
• Standing Stone: The Monk gains a -6 AC bonus and +40% resistances to all forms of physical damage, but is rooted to the spot (to avoid Free Action cheese, his Movement Rate is dropped to 0) and limited to 1 Attack per Round for the duration.
• Folding Flower: The Monk gains -5 bonuses to all Saving Throws, +25% Magic Resistance, and immunity to Maze and Imprisonment, but his THAC0 and AC are both set to 10 for the duration.
• Multiple Me: Simulacrum. (Note that the Simulacrum can cast Multiple Me if the HLA has been chosen more than once.)
• Harmony of the Ancestors: Following a round of meditation, the Monk enjoys the effects of Luck, Bless, Bard Song, and Defensive Harmony for 1 turn.

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: ...(Interesting thought--the HLA grants immunity for four rounds. Can the duration expire during a Time Stop?)...

I've had my Focus ability wear off during a Time Stop, so I'd guess this is set up the same way. It's almost funny - that "oh, no" sensation you get when someone normally casts Time Stop is doubled. [img]smile.gif[/img]

- Imrahil

[Kevin Dorner]

Originally posted by SixOfSpades: BOO!...but is rooted to the spot (to avoid Free Action cheese, his Movement Rate is dropped to 0) and limited to 1 Attack per Round for the duration.

AFAIK can't even change a char's movement rate with the Free Action effect active; if Free Action is applied before the HLA it would still allow cheese.

Speaking of cheese, the other big reason that Dimension Door was removed by the devs (other than missing game-critical triggers) is that it allows the char. to warp to an inaccessible spot and pick off melee enemies at leisure with ranged weapons/spells; final ToB battle is a good example of where this could be horridly abused. In the replies I saw from BioWare asking why Dimension Door wasn't carried over from BG1, these were the two reasons given, plus the nice bonus of allowing more freedom in area design by having inaccessible areas that become accessible through some other method than having a door open.

[ 05-30-2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]

[Kish]

I should identify myself...I'm the writer of the Oversight mod.

I don't think any of the abilities are overpowered, myself. Bear in mind that "overpowered" means "more powerful than the powers the other classes get, like Greater Whirlwind, Critical Strike, Hardiness, Enhanced Bard Song, and Use Any Item."

Dimension Door breaking triggers...This is a possibility, but I'm afraid those triggers are more delicate than you realize. My experience is that Boots of Speed can break them, too. The rest of the monk's party still need to go through the area the normal way.

Jumping into the Monastery may be a problem. I'll have to check whether that actually can happen.

And...

Stunning Blow that ignores Saves and MR: Overpowered. Duh.

I'm not entirely sure which HLA you're thinking of here. I can think of three possibilities:

1) Stunning Blow. This is one more use of the Stunning Blow ability per day. It is in no way different from the original.
2) Tiger Strike. This is a direct copy of Smite with a more monk-specific name.
3) Shadowless Kick. This is in every respect weaker than Smite.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Kish: Dimension Door breaking triggers...This is a possibility, but I'm afraid those triggers are more delicate than you realize. My experience is that Boots of Speed can break them, too. The rest of the monk's party still need to go through the area the normal way. Jumping into the Monastery may be a problem. I'll have to check whether that actually can happen.

Well and good, but that still doesn't address the problem of people jumping to places where they can't be reached, and gunning away with impunity. Other "obstacles" might include:

• The Walls of Force that keep you out of the Pocket Plane challenges until you're ready to face them
• Other Walls of Force in the Marching Mountains
• Leaving Saradush by leaping over the moat

I'm not entirely sure which HLA you're thinking of here.

Since I haven't installed Oversight, yet, I'm not sure either--I was simply going by daan's quote: "...really good HLAs are IMO the fist that knocks people out ( I believe it is without save or MR check )."

As for not even being able to manipulate Movement Rate while under Free Action:
POOPIE!