wich of the kits is best?

[Lord Lothar]

Originally posted by Alson: quote: Originally posted by Lord Lothar: Can you backstab with a quarterstaff? I tried it with Imoen and the Staff of the Magi and it didn't work.

You can backstab with any weapon a THIEF can normally use.
A thief can use a quarterstaff.
A thief can NOT use the Staff of the Magi. [/QUOTE]So a thief has to backstab with something that a PURE thief can use?

[Alson]

Originally posted by Lord Lothar: Yep Ravager is pretty sweet. The funny thing is that wwhen I was fighting ********, I got that "vorpal hit ghost thing" animation about 5 times.

A big spoiler there, Lord (no pun intended [img]smile.gif[/img] )...
Consider editing your post.

And yes, most of the ToB bosses are immune to Vorpal hits...
Rightfully so, IMHO... Otherwise, you may as well stop playing after assembling
Ravager +6 or Axe of Unyielding +5.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Lord Lothar: So a thief has to backstab with something that a PURE thief can use?

Exactly.

[Jim]

The staff of the ram actually has the potential to do *more* damage than the FoA+5. They both have the same damage ranges of 17-22 on a single hit *however* the staff can get a bonus point of damage using the "2-handed weapon style proficiency", which consequently also doubles the chances of getting a critical hit. If you're dual wielding the flail, then you can only score criticals on a roll of 20, unless you're using it as a single weapon, which you probably wont be doing! And while I'm on about criticals, the majority of the damage from the flail is elemental, which consequently isn't doubled on a critical hit.

Therefore:

critical hit range for the staff = (D6+12+D4+1)*2 = 30-46 on 19 or 20
critical hit range for the flail = ((D6+6)*2)+2+2+2+2+2 = 24-34 on a roll of 20

These values exclude strength and weapon proficiencies (except for the +1 for the staff which is an exclusive bonus to 2-handed weapons only) so it becomes more apparent that the staff is capable of dealing far more damage on a critical hit, and twice as often as the flail. The flail's highest point of damage also assumes that the enemy is vulnerable to all 5 elements which is not very likely in ToB as many of them have high resistances. Of course, the flail is probably a better weapon since the elemental damage penetrates stoneskins and it can be combined with a shield or another weapon but the staff's damage is a more consistent IMO, also having the potential to hit for far more damage on critical hits.

[Alson]

Good points, Jim!

But, if i may add - you excluded strength bonuses in your calculations, which is wrong, IMHO. Strength bonuses are VERY important.
For example, because Ages is a one handed weapon, you can put Crom is the off hand.
Voila! Another attack per round, another +7 to THACO and +14 to damage... And that's on a normal, non-critical hit, which most hit are.
It's damage per round we want, not per hit, and Ages + Crom beats Ram in this game.
Plus all the other reasons mentioned earlier, of course.

[BlackJack21]

If we are powergaming here then a character could take the evil path in hell and get +2 to strength and then wear the girdle of fire giant strength (bonus in hell stacks with it.) Now the Man with the Ram also has 25 strength and an extra +14 to damage.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Girdle of Fire Strength = 22 STR
Hell bonus = +2 STR

Ergo, 24 STR 'only'

STR bonus from the Machine of Lum affects the base STR, and will not stack.

If we use an evil plain lvl 40 Fighter, assume Grandmastery Patch, assume Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation, assume all hits connect, and assume 40 rounds( 4 turns)... ...

Ding! Ding! And in this corner we haaaave,

Flail of Ages +5( Crom Faeyr +5 in off-hand)
----
1d6 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 dmg( FoA +5)
1d4 + 6 + 5 dmg( CF +5)
5* = +5 dmg
25 STR = +14 dmg
9/2 Attacks per round( Apr)

Normal Hit:
FoA +5: 1d6 + 6 + 5 + 14 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 36-41 dmg
CF +5: 1d4 + 6 + 5 + 14 + 5 = 31-34 dmg

Critical Hit:
FoA +5: ((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 14) * 2) + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 62-72 dmg
CF +5: ((1d4 + 6 + 5 + 14) * 2) + 5 = 57-63 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 180 hits. 120 will be the FoA +5, 60 will be CF +5. Assuming an even 5% of critical hits, there will be 6 for the FoA +5, and 3 for CF +5.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (114 * 36) + (6 * 62) = 4476 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (114 * 41) + (6 * 72) = 5106 dmg
Average damage for FoA +5 in 1 round: (4476+5106)/80 = 119.775 damage

Minimum damage for CF +5 in 40 rounds: (57 * 31) + (3 * 57) = 1938 dmg
Maximum damage for CF +5 in 40 rounds: (57 * 34) + (3 * 63) = 2127 dmg
Average damage for CF +5 in 1 round: (1938+2127)/80 = 50.8125 damage

Ergo...

Average damage for the FoA +5 and CF +5 combination per round: 119.775 + 50.8125 = 170.5875 damage

Ding! Ding! And in the other corner we haaaave,

Staff of the Ram +6
----
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 dmg
5* = +5 dmg
24 STR = +12 dmg
7/2 Apr
Two-Handed Weapon Style(**) = +1 dmg

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 12 + 1 = 32-40 dmg

Critical Hit:
(1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 12 + 1) * 2 = 64-80 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 10% of critical hits, there will be 14 for the SotR +6.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 32) + (14 * 64) = 4928 dmg
Maximum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 40) + (14 * 80) = 6160 dmg
Average damage for SotR in 1 round: (4928 + 6160)/80 = 138.6 dmg

For the sake of argument, if we use a BG1 character. This means we can have 25 STR.

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 14 + 1 = 34-42 dmg

Critical Hit:
(1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 14 + 1) * 2 = 68-84 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 10% of critical hits, there will be 14 for the SotR +6.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 34) + (14 * 68) = 5236 dmg
Maximum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 42) + (14 * 84) = 6468 dmg
Average damage for SotR +6 in 1 round: (5236 + 6468)/80 = 146.3 dmg

Ding! Ding! And finally, in the last corner we haaaave,

Flail of the Ages +5
----
1d6 + 6 + 10 dmg
5* = +5 dmg
24 STR = +12 dmg
7/2 Apr

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 6 + 10 + 5 + 12 = 34-39 dmg

Critical Hit:
((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 12) * 2) + 10 = 58-68 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 5% of critical hits, there will be 7 for the FoA +5.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 34) + (7 * 58) = 4928 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 39) + (7 * 68) = 5663 dmg
Average damage for FoA +5 in 1 round: (4928 + 5663)/80 = 132.3875 dmg

For the sake of argument, if we use a BG1 character. This means we can have 25 STR.

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 6 + 10 + 5 + 14 = 36-41 dmg

Critical Hit:
((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 14) * 2) + 10 = 62-72 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 5% of critical hits, there will be 7 for the FoA +5.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 36) + (7 * 62) = 5222 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 41) + (7 * 72) = 5957 dmg
Average damage for FoA +5 in 1 round: (5222 + 5957)/80 = 139.7375 dmg

In conclusion...

FoA +5 & CF +5 ~~> 170.5875 dmg/round
FoA +5 at 24 STR ~~> 132.3875 dmg/round
SotR +6 at 24 STR ~~> 138.6 dmg/round
FoA +5 at 25 STR ~~> 139.7375 dmg/round
SotR +6 at 25 STR ~~> 146.3 dmg/round

Flail of Ages +5 and Crom Faeyr +5 together beats the Staff of the Ram +6 any day. What 'cripples' the Staff of the Ram +6 is that dualwield means one more attack.

However, the Staff of the Ram +6 is more damaging than the Flail of the Ages +5 due to the fact that the Staff of the Ram has more physical damage, so it scores better in the long term.

Therefore, the Staff of the Ram +6 is the most damaging singular weapon in the game. At least until I calculate the Ravager +6 and make sure.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Hmmmm... just realised that the Ravager's damage is affected by saving throws as well. As such, it will be difficult to calculate the average damage unless I do it from -20 to 20 and extract the average; but I am too lazy to go through all that trouble, so I will just cop out and say,

Bad saving thows = good damage
Good saving throws = decent damage

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Jim]

wow somebody's been busy! Nice work Dundee [img]smile.gif[/img] I'll throw in my 2 cents to your figures now:

The hammer of thunderbolts and Crom Faeyr actually hits for 2D4 damage, rather than the standard 1D4+1 damage of a normal warhammer. Also upgrading to Crom Faeyr doesn't raise the base damage from the hammer of thunderbolts, so CF hits for 2D4+3 (plus 5 electrical) damage rather than 1D4+6.

1d6 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 dmg( FoA +5) 1d4 + 6 + 5 dmg( CF +5) 5* = +5 dmg 25 STR = +14 dmg 9/2 Attacks per round( Apr)

I don't think you've taken the +2 damage from the gauntlets into consideration, so...

1d6 + 6 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 dmg( FoA +5)
2d4 + 3 + 5 dmg( CF +5)
5* = +5 dmg
gauntlets = +2 dmg
25 STR = +14 dmg
5 Attacks per round( Apr) (extra 1/2 attack from the gauntlets)

so normal hits become:

FoA +5: 1d6 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 38-43 dmg
CF +5: 2d4 + 3 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 5 = 31-37 dmg

and critical hit becomes:

FoA +5: ((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 14) * 2) + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 66-76 dmg
CF +5: ((2d4 + 3 + 5 + 2 + 14) * 2) + 5 = 57-69 dmg

We therefore now have 200 hits in 40 rounds, and since the offhand weapon only grants 1 extra attack per round, Crom Faeyr will hit 40 times with the remaining 160 being with the FoE+5.

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (152 * 38) + (8 * 66) = 6304 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (152 * 43) + (8 * 76) = 7144 dmg
Average then = (6304+7144)/80 = 168.1 damage per round

Minimum damage for CF +5 in 40 rounds: (38 * 31) + (2 * 57) = 1292 dmg
Maximum damage for CF +5 in 40 rounds: (38 * 37) + (2 * 69) = 1772 dmg
Average then = (1292+1772)/80 = 38.3 damage per round

Average combo damage is then 206.4 damage per round, an overall average of 41.28 dmg per hit

-------------------------------------------

Staff of the ram calculations are spot on, but I'll just add the extra 1/2 attack from the gauntlets:

1d6 + 12 + 1d4 dmg
5* = +5 dmg
24 STR = +12 dmg
4 Apr
Two-Handed Weapon Style(**) = +1 dmg

so in 40 rounds we now have 160 hits with an average of 16 being critical:

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 1 = 36-44 dmg

Critical Hit:
(1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 1) * 2 = 72-88 dmg

Minimum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (144 * 36) + (16 * 72) = 6192 dmg
Maximum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (144 * 44) + (16 * 88) = 7744 dmg
Average damage for SotR +6 in 1 round: (6192 + 7744)/80 = 174.2 dmg, an average of 43.55 damage per hit.

So the staff will hit for more damage with each hit, even though the combo has a higher damage per round, making the staff as Dundee quite rightly says, the single most damaging weapon in the game. It's also available far earlier in ToB than the FoE+5 and so can be put to use right after Saradush. The FoA damage is assuming 100% vulnerability to all of the elements, while the staff deals (mostly) raw crushing damage, and I can't think of any foe in the game that has immunity to crushing weapons. So, while I agree 100% with Alson's statement regarding damage per round, I'm still going to stand by my word that the staff is the most damaging weapon (i.e. non plural) in the game [img]smile.gif[/img]

A few more points:

Also, taking the evil path through hell actually does grant +3 to strength. If you give in to the taint when fighting Sarevok's Wraith, you recieve + 1 to your primary attribute, as well as the +2 to STR when you use the tear, so if you're a warrior, you'll be recieving a total of +3 to your strength. Another +1 from the deck of many things, and from the machine of lum the mad will give you a natural (i.e. non magical) strength of 24 (provided you started the game with a STR of 19, either from a half-ord or from a BG1 imported character). You could raise this to 25 using a holy symbol from one of the faiths, but you'd need to be dual/multiclassed with a thief to do so

We should make another thread called "the numbers behind the super weapons" or something since we've drifted somewhat from poor Cristians starter post, placing all these latter posts in there.

Back to Lord Lothar's question about the beastmaster's armour:

What about armor?

It isn't in the kit description, but the beastmaster is restricted to non metal armour as well as weapons, so any armour better than hide is unuseable.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Erm Jim, I already factored in the +1/2 Apr from the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation. [img]smile.gif[/img] However, I will edit the damage calculations to reflect the correct sums.

Base Apr: 1
Level 7/13: +1 Apr
5*: +1 Apr
GoES: +1/2 Apr

That gives us 7/2 Apr for the SotR +6, while dualwield means 9/2 Apr. Factoring in the GoES's bonus damage now.

If we use an evil plain Human lvl 40 Fighter, assume Grandmastery Patch, assume Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation, assume all hits connect, and assume 40 rounds( 4 turns)... ...

Flail of Ages +5( Crom Faeyr +5 in off-hand)
----
1d6 + 6 + 10 dmg( FoA +5)
2d4 + 3 + 5 dmg( CF +5)
5* = +5 dmg
GoES = +2 dmg
25 STR = +14 dmg
9/2 Attacks per round( Apr)

Normal Hit:
FoA +5: 1d6 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 10 = 38-43 dmg
CF +5: 2d4 + 3 + 5 + 2 + 14 + 5 = 31-37 dmg

Critical Hit:
FoA +5: ((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 2 + 14) * 2) + 10 = 66-76 dmg
CF +5: ((2d4 + 3 + 5 + 2 + 14) * 2) + 5 = 57-69 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 180 hits. 120 will be the FoA +5, 60 will be CF +5. Assuming an even 5% of critical hits, there will be 6 for the FoA +5, and 3 for CF +5.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (114 * 38) + (6 * 66) = 4728 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (114 * 43) + (6 * 76) = 5358 dmg
Average damage for FoA +5 in 1 round: (4728 + 5358)/80 = 126.075 damage

Minimum damage for CF +5 in 40 rounds: (57 * 31) + (3 * 57) = 1938 dmg
Maximum damage for CF +5 in 40 rounds: (57 * 37) + (3 * 69) = 2316 dmg
Average damage for CF +5 in 1 round: (1938 + 2316)/80 = 53.175 damage

Ergo...

Average damage for the FoA +5 and CF +5 combination per round: 126.075 + 53.175 = 179.25 damage

Staff of the Ram +6
----
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 dmg
5* = +5 dmg
GoES = +2 dmg
24 STR = +12 dmg
7/2 Apr
Two-Handed Weapon Style(**) = +1 dmg

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 12 + 1 + 2 = 34-42 dmg

Critical Hit:
(1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 12 + 1 + 2) * 2 = 68-84 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 10% of critical hits, there will be 14 for the SotR +6.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 34) + (14 * 68) = 5236 dmg
Maximum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 42) + (14 * 84) = 6468 dmg
Average damage for SotR in 1 round: (5236 + 6468)/80 = 146.3 dmg

For the sake of argument, if we use a BG1 character. This means we can have 25 STR.

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 14 + 1 + 2 = 36-44 dmg

Critical Hit:
(1d6 + 12 + 1d4 + 5 + 14 + 1 + 2) * 2 = 72-88 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 10% of critical hits, there will be 14 for the SotR +6.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 36) + (14 * 72) = 5544 dmg
Maximum damage for SotR +6 in 40 rounds: (126 * 44) + (14 * 88) = 6776 dmg
Average damage for SotR +6 in 1 round: (5544 + 6776)/80 = 154 dmg

Flail of the Ages +5
----
1d6 + 6 + 10 dmg
5* = +5 dmg
GoES = +2 dmg
24 STR = +12 dmg
7/2 Apr

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 6 + 10 + 5 + 12 + 2 = 36-41 dmg

Critical Hit:
((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 12 + 2) * 2) + 10 = 62-72 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 5% of critical hits, there will be 7 for the FoA +5.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 36) + (7 * 62) = 5222 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 41) + (7 * 72) = 5957 dmg
Average damage for FoA +5 in 1 round: (5222 + 5957)/80 = 139.7375 dmg

For the sake of argument, if we use a BG1 character. This means we can have 25 STR.

Normal Hit:
1d6 + 6 + 10 + 5 + 14 + 2= 38-43 dmg

Critical Hit:
((1d6 + 6 + 5 + 14 + 2) * 2) + 10 = 66-76 dmg

In 40 rounds, there are 140 hits. Assuming an even 5% of critical hits, there will be 7 for the FoA +5.

Therefore...

Minimum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 38) + (7 * 66) = 5516 dmg
Maximum damage for FoA +5 in 40 rounds: (133 * 43) + (7 * 76) = 6251 dmg
Average damage for FoA +5 in 1 round: (5516 + 6251)/80 = 147.0875 dmg

In conclusion...

FoA +5 & CF +5 ~~> 179.25 dmg/round
FoA +5 at 24 STR ~~> 139.7375 dmg/round
SotR +6 at 24 STR ~~> 146.3 dmg/round
FoA +5 at 25 STR ~~> 147.0875 dmg/round
SotR +6 at 25 STR ~~> 154 dmg/round