How do you ascertain the worth in a worldview?

[Fljotsdale]

Wolfgir! Interesting post! You make some excellent and well-considered points.
As for Yorick - yes! One of the best christians I have ever met. We disagree about a LOT of detail, (I enjoy arguing with him, lol!) but on the basics we agree. As you say, when it comes down to it, most of us in this thread agree with each other about the important things.

Hope you flu is better soon!

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[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Paradise conditions does not just mean pretty places on the earth, but the WHOLE EARTH! No nasty grotty city slums ANYWHERE!

As once the whole world was. The slums are what we have created Fjlotsdale.


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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Hi everyone!
Is it ok if I join in?
I would like only to talk about "Revelatio" aka Apokalupsis.
Lets break it up into ...hhmmm... lets say 3 parts.

• Things past
• Things present
• Things future[/list] The climax of this book begins with the revelation of Christ (ch.19)
  It is not all about symbolism. The main purpose of the book is to provide the setting for the revelation of Jesus Christ. Principal attention is given to the time of the tribulation(4-19), which is beleived to coincide with Daniels's seventh week(Dan.9:24-27). The great tribulation, the latter half of that "week," is really standing out here. Unfolding the central theme, concluding all books of scriptures, disclosure of that which was previously hidden. Love you guys But wait, I know this has a influence on my world veiws
  
  
  
  [This message has been edited by Conan (edited 09-06-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: As once the whole world was. The slums are what we have created Fjlotsdale.

Sure we created the slums, Yorick. Not denying it!
But the point of my post was this:

YOU say you believe in the bible.
THE BIBLE says ONLY ONE GARDEN, that god planted, in Eden, was paradise.
The rest of the world was not. Read the scriptures I cited.

YOU say you believe the whole earth was once paradise.
Therefore you deny what the bible says.



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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 09-07-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Conan: Hi everyone! Is it ok if I join in? I would like only to talk about "Revelatio" aka Apokalupsis. Lets break it up into ...hhmmm... lets say 3 parts. Things past Things present Things future[/list] The climax of this book begins with the revelation of Christ (ch.19) It is not all about symbolism. The main purpose of the book is to provide the setting for the revelation of Jesus Christ. Principal attention is given to the time of the tribulation(4-19), which is beleived to coincide with Daniels's seventh week(Dan.9:24-27). The great tribulation, the latter half of that "week," is really standing out here. Unfolding the central theme, concluding all books of scriptures, disclosure of that which was previously hidden. Love you guys But wait, I know this has a influence on my world veiws [This message has been edited by Conan (edited 09-06-2001).]

Sure join in Conan!

Small objection to what you said about symbolism in Revelation:
Rev 1:1 (Apocalypse 1:1) says, in part, "he... presented it in signs... to his slave John."
So the book itself is saying it is symbolic. And indeed, some of it can only be understood if we realise that fact. For example, how else can you understand this:

"And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire"

You cannot literally pick up death and throw it into a literal fire can you? Nor can you pick up a symbolic place (Hades) and throw it into a literal fire, can you?

And what about the 144,000 who are to inherit a heavenly kingdom with christ? A literal number, or symbolic? If literal, then sucks to the rest of the christians, lol!

Just two of very many examples!

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Just not all I realize that shifts of locale from earth to heaven and back again is the narrative and not in chronological order. ..and the major continuity is provided by the events symbolized in the seals,trumpets,and bowls. Constant use is made of symbols. I just dont want to admit that it is all symbolism
I interpret Revelation as a book that is for now a little obscure but something that will become clearer as time gos on. I wonder how many people laughed when they heard the elements of the earth were some day going to melt together..not funny anymore is it.
The tribulation will never the less be a period of salvation. An election out of Isreal will be redeemed 7:1-4 with an inumerable mutitude of Gentiles also. v:9 They are not of the Preisthood,the Church,to which they seem to stand somewhat in the relation of the Levites to the preists under the Mosaic Covenant. Isa.1:9 Rom11:5 Isreals unbeleif is the Gentiles opportunity.
Remnants..

*Ester*Mordecai*Ezekiel*Daniel*Shadrach*Meshach*Ab ed-negro[/list]There has been remnants of people all along . Why does the 12,000 from each tribe of Isreal bother you? It seems to always come up when talking about Revelation. This is my best thoughts and in no way are they perfect thats for sure Thanks for listening to my rant Its been a pleasure to read everyones responses and it really helps me to learn more when I talk about it with others.
*\Conan/*



[This message has been edited by Conan (edited 09-07-2001).]

[WOLFGIR]

Fjotsdale Yorick, about that line with paradise, I read in a book once an argument not much far from your. They finally led down to the greek translation of the bible in wich it lead to that paradise was two things. The translation could be both interpretated into that paradise was Eden, and some say that eden really was earth. They didn´t come to a conclusion.. (Seems familiar? hehe)

Well and the other point is that the paradise is lost and that that is waht the revelations is all about. The last batlle will cleanse the earth to be made into Eden once more. However it was some time ago I read this book and it was a lousy translated book from german, so you might now some flaws already about these points. But do you know of any other translation problems in the bible since you are into splitting hairs now? (Hehe, sorry, can´t help but to tease you!) I will see if I can find some more interesting and more "facts" to this. A friend of mine has read o very interesting book about the bible and some small faults and pointers to real life. Some which add to the fact that Jesus really existed (ok in a very scientific way here!!) and some that are so completely wrong there must be something else behind the points..

I´ll go digging!

Cheers! (Yorrick instead of mate, what do you call a girl in Aussie?)

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Conan: Just not all I realize that shifts of locale from earth to heaven and back again is the narrative and not in chronological order. ..and the major continuity is provided by the events symbolized in the seals,trumpets,and bowls. Constant use is made of symbols. I just dont want to admit that it is all symbolism I interpret Revelation as a book that is for now a little obscure but something that will become clearer as time gos on. I wonder how many people laughed when they heard the elements of the earth were some day going to melt together..not funny anymore is it. The tribulation will never the less be a period of salvation. An election out of Isreal will be redeemed 7:1-4 with an inumerable mutitude of Gentiles also. v:9 They are not of the Preisthood,the Church,to which they seem to stand somewhat in the relation of the Levites to the preists under the Mosaic Covenant. Isa.1:9 Rom11:5 Isreals unbeleif is the Gentiles opportunity. Remnants.. *Ester*Mordecai*Ezekiel*Daniel*Shadrach*Meshach*Ab ed-negro[/list]There has been remnants of people all along . Why does the 12,000 from each tribe of Isreal bother you? It seems to always come up when talking about Revelation. This is my best thoughts and in no way are they perfect thats for sure Thanks for listening to my rant Its been a pleasure to read everyones responses and it really helps me to learn more when I talk about it with others. *\Conan/* [This message has been edited by Conan (edited 09-07-2001).]

I think you will find, with some reading of the epistles as well as Revelation, that what is being referred to as a Remnant is not of the nation of Isreal but of Spiritual Israel.
I'll look up the scriptures for you if you like?

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[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Fjotsdale Yorick, about that line with paradise, I read in a book once an argument not much far from your. They finally led down to the greek translation of the bible in wich it lead to that paradise was two things. The translation could be both interpretated into that paradise was Eden, and some say that eden really was earth. They didn´t come to a conclusion.. (Seems familiar? hehe) Well and the other point is that the paradise is lost and that that is waht the revelations is all about. The last batlle will cleanse the earth to be made into Eden once more. However it was some time ago I read this book and it was a lousy translated book from german, so you might now some flaws already about these points. But do you know of any other translation problems in the bible since you are into splitting hairs now? (Hehe, sorry, can´t help but to tease you!) I will see if I can find some more interesting and more "facts" to this. A friend of mine has read o very interesting book about the bible and some small faults and pointers to real life. Some which add to the fact that Jesus really existed (ok in a very scientific way here!!) and some that are so completely wrong there must be something else behind the points..

If you read Genesis chapter 2 you will see these statements:
'God planted a garden (paradeisos) in Eden (pleasure), towards the East.' (verse 8) 'Now there was a river issuing out of Eden to water the garden' (verse 10) 'And god proceeded to take the man and to settle him in the garden of Eden..' (verse 15)

So, the bible indicates that Eden (pleasure) was the name of a specific area in 'the East' that had rivers that watered the garden (paradeisos) planted by god. The description of the other areas watered by those rivers shows that Eden was near the region bounded by the Euphrates and Tigris rivers.

So.
Eden = Pleasure.
Garden = Paradise.

In an area called Pleasure, god planted a Paradise. He found the nicest place on the planet, planted a garden, put the man in it and told him to look after it.

Thereafter, the bible refers to it as the Garden (Paradise) of Eden (Pleasure).
The Paradise of Pleasure. A Pleasure Garden.
Nice, huh?

Never mind your book! In this case the bible is pretty clear!

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Why wouldnt the aspect of the remnant take a grafted form like under Ezra and Nehemiah? Well, it is prophetic and it seems salvation has gone to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. 7:3-4 Please tell me your thoughts on this.