Government & Corporate Power versus Environment poll

[caleb]

I would take a more active role in environmental protection but I dont want to be associated with these vegetarian dolphin lovers that contradict themselves whenever they speak. Dont kill living things but eat plants? plants must be living too after all they grow and reproduce. All these activists go apeshit over a dolphin being caught in the tuna nets....but what about the tuna! God forbid hunters shoot bambi but who cares about the roadkill animals?

caleb

working on being a bigger smartass then tancred.
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Meet my lawyer.

[This message has been edited by caleb (edited 05-06-2001).]

[Aurican]

Originally posted by Mouse: This may not be the "pc" viewpoint, but is nobody in anyway troubled by the artificial distinction betwen "mankind" and the rest of the natural world. I could argue that everything that the human race has done is just another facet of the evolutionary process.... but dammit, I am very inebriated and need to sleep !!

You could say that, but how many other animals can you mention that have bulldozed habitats and hunted animals to extinction for their fur coats and teeth?

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Can an elf get a break anywhere these days?

[WOLFGIR]

Hmm, this world might be tougher than we are, but the life is more fragile than the earth, and what good would it be to destroy the only living planet with sentient beings on in this solar system?

We can do small things but we are still in the power of money, we all are. We are too many people crammed up with a lifestyle that won´t do.
Nor is it only us in the rich countries that are doing wrong. The poor countries wants to make an economy and to get their they have to "evolve" through the nature destroying eras the richer worlds have done to get there. This doing that the forrests are cutdown for paper use. Fossils are still used cause cars are running on them. People with ideals trying to make better fuels are bought up by the bigger oilcompanies and their research stays in a map labeled do not open until X-mas 3000...

People designing better engines are bought up too..
Well small buisness. major companies polute the oceans and endangered species are killed in the process.

Fishing regattas are using to small nets and overquoting. Killing of their own livelyhood.

We are stuck in a consumer position.
Poor people have a tradition in having grazing animals cause of the status it gives them.
many poor have alot of children that makes it hard to feed them all but all to guarantee them to have a safe oldage living.

In the north sea, there are alot of burned out nuclear sub engines.. Not much fish though..

Too be tough, you will have to learn to live with polution, to accept your allergies, to be prepaird to face your children and tell them that you are responsible for killing the nature to get clean clothes, take yourself to work. And that it is their fault too, because they exist, because you had to feed them...

We are in a badcycle of selfdestroying.. It is hard to brake it.

We have to educate the world, us including and there are no teachers..

Most that teach are connected to a fanatic group or a religion or a politic group that can´t reach people because of their and our narrow views of perspective.

Well, I hate to be a bringer of bad news but the good thing is that we still have Zoo´s to see wildlife in, we still have a 100 channels on the TV and so..

Will you trade Ricki lake and Jeopardy for squirrel chased by a pineferret?

I would...
Problem, I don´t know how... You have any ideas please tell me..

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WOLF WINS EVERY FIGHT BUT ONE, AND IN THAT ONE, HE DIES

[Fljotsdale]

This is becoming very interesting! Keep it coming, you guys!
It occurs to me that I have not stated MY viewpoint, lol! I have to go away and put it in proper order, then I will post again.

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Smile! Life is too short for bitching!

Fljotsdale

[WOLFGIR]

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: . I think in the next twenty or so years we will have to come up with some sort of alternate fuel source for all our cars, trucks and power plants. Maybe some sort of alcohol based fuel. We could help the farmers with that, at the same time.

In Sweden a couple of years ago a man found out how to make an alcohol based fuel of pines, which are easy to grow and also new forresting will add greatly to the oxygen reproducing of the world. This alcohol based fuel had gotten rid of almost 90% of all the toxics and hazardrous materials in ordinary fuel. The engines of today could be easily and rather nonexpanively be upgraded to accept the new fuel. Unfortunately a major oil company bought the idea and this was for about seven eight years or so ago...

Nice eh?

Sure we have to deal with this with the technology we have, not much left to do, we can´t go backwards, we would go into anarchy and the level of understanding would probably drop.

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WOLF WINS EVERY FIGHT BUT ONE, AND IN THAT ONE, HE DIES

[Fljotsdale]

OK. Here are a few of my thought on the issue. Not profound, not clever, not by any means all my thoughts about it:

I’m another fence-sitter in some ways. Yes, I truly believe we are destroying our environment – but I also believe that ‘going back to nature’ is not an option. If we all went back to nature we would destroy the environment even more than we are now (can you see the effect on nature if the present world population became hunter-gatherer’s?).

I have lived long enough to observe, just in my own city, the effect we are having on wildlife, and I will tell you just one example of it.
When I was growing up in the late 30’s, 40’s and early 50’s, I lived on the outskirts this city, and frequently went into the city centre. Wherever I went in the city there were great flocks of sparrows (drab little brown seedeater) and starlings (a larger, speckled, black bird with a blue/green gloss). You couldn’t walk along a pavement (sidewalk!) anywhere without having a flock of ‘em fly from under your feet. OK. Too many. Gradually the numbers decreased. Natural balance, no doubt.
BUT. I still live in the same city, also on the outskirts, though different area, and I have not seen a sparrow or a starling for years and YEARS. Why? It ain’t just ‘natural balance’. There are clearly a number of reasons, but the two principle ones seem to be the spraying of chemicals on crops, and the phenomenal increase in the number of domestic cats.
I never thought much about environmental issues. After all, life goes on, doesn’t it, and you can’t stop progress, and who wants to anyway – I love my creature comforts as much as the next man/woman and don’t want to lose them. I also know that fighting big Corporates and Governments is doomed to failure. I’m not a starry-eyed utopian (but I’d LOVE a real Utopia!)
So. I started to think about what I COULD do. I could be careful about keeping my garden chemical free (yeah, I know it’s in the atmosphere, but no need to add to it), and grow stuff birds & butterflies like to eat, and encourage slugs (bird food!) by letting the leaves lie. I could use public transport instead of my motor-bike (less convenient, but hey, minor sacrifice, and anyway my family worried about me!). I could be careful about the food I bought (it’s a bore to read labels at first, but you get to know what’s ok pretty fast). I could make sure I never dropped litter. I could re-cycle… etc, etc, etc.
After all, the ONLY effective way of dealing with policies you don’t like is to resist quietly by refusing to buy/buy into stuff you object to.
That way, if enough of us do it, the Corporates and the Governments will get the message. After all, they are in it to make a profit, and if they find that the only way they can make a profit is to produce in such a way as to preserve the environment, THEY’LL DO IT!
Demo’s are all very well, but it is YOUR PURCHASING POWER that will affect their methods, not the demos alone.
Heck, I haven’t said anything like as much as I’d like, but you don’t want to read an essay! Anyway, just look for ways YOU can help, even in very small ways. IT COUNTS!


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Smile! Life is too short for bitching!

Fljotsdale

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 05-07-2001).]

[Staralfur]

I believe that we really are hurting the planet. This semester I've had a small section on enviromental issues as part of my chemistry degree. It started as a sort of 'I got to pick another 5 credits' thing, but by the end it was probably one of the most interesting courses I've done so far. I won't go into it all, but basically we covered 4 main areas of pollution, and how they affect the enviroment, what is being done etc... Even from this short course it was clear that we are having a major effect on the planet, most of it negative.
It was also made very clear that the enviroment is very complicated and hard to fully understand (believe me, I've got an exam on it all soon), which is why governments and companies have been able to shed the responsibilty for so long.
Arguments like 'rain is naturally acidic' and 'the planet is warming up anyway' could be got away with, because no one fully understood how much effect pollution was having. This is wrong! Surely it is obvious that pumping out chemicals that don't naturally existin the atmosphere , and increasing the normal content of those that do is going to have some sort of an effect on it. Also, just because effects don't happen straight away, and pollution can be carried far from it's source doesn't mean it's not the polluters' responsability. For instance acid rain in Sweden is quite often caused by chemicals from Britain.
Apparently a lot of these problems are beginning to come under control (unless people like G.Bush keep getting their way - sorry got political), but from I can gather there are probably a load of other problems we are no aware of yet. (Could quote a few examples from the past). Also as someone else has pointed out, the biggest problem now could be developing countries that want to catch up with the richer ones. They are the next big polluters, and they aren't going to listen to Europe or the US or whoever, if they see that these countries aren't practising what they preach.

It's not our right to destroy the planet, yes it can take a lot but why should we even try to test it. Just because we've (apparently) evolved quicker than every other species doesn't mean we can start throwing our weight about. I'm not saying we shoud all start becoming at one with the planet, but stop thinking purely about our own comfort, and consider what effect you might be having. I'm not saying anyone here is like this, just that a lot of people I know are. I think part of the problem is that it goes in trends; a few years ago there was save the whale, then gobal warming and acid rain. People seem to forget that these problems don't go away in 2-3 years. It can take up to 30 years for some fertilisers to get through the system to where the effects can be seen.

I'm not going to pretend that I am the worlds No.1 enviromentalist, but I think I am more concerned than a lot of people I know. At the minute I am certainly considering goning into the enviromental side of chemistry, partly because it is very intersting, partly because I think this is where I can do something not everyone can, and partly because my MAD chemistry Professor is into that sort of thing ( ). But who knows, I've still got to pass this year yet.

I'd prefer to end on a happier note, so here are a couple of examples of good things that have happened locally to me:
In the town where my parents live there is a fairly big pond (by GB standards anyway) with a large wood around it. Before 1980 it was overgrown, the pond was silting up, there was little wildlife there, and it was no good for anything inparticular. In about 1982 a society formed to sort it out. They spent several years clearing it up, putting paths in, and saving some of the rarer habitats. Now it is a protected by law because it contains several rare species of plants and animals, but it is also open to the public. It is a lovely place, somewhere I can go for a walk if I need to clear my head, or just relax.
Another example: When I was 6 my school was relocating and needed a new building. All the plans were drawn up, and some of the construction started. However, a very rare plant was found right where the playground was going to be put. In the end instead of moving the plant, the plans were changed and the playground built somewhere else.

I think these show that we can work with the enviroment, and everyone can still be happy.

[This message has been edited by Staralfur (edited 05-07-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Bump.

We Can't go on like this and keep on cutting trees and draining earths resourses
I think the enviroment is vital.
Global warming in my eyes isn't that big of a problem as study's show this could be caused by the activitys of the sun but this is no excuse to burn old plants (oil and gas) or cut down trees

I do have a nice note to add
Formule 1 autoracing is seen as a big polutor
Nice this is they plant enough trees every year to compremise 4 times the amount of CO2 Greenpeace claimes F1 causes
If only more companies were like that.

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The Githyanki Necromancer - High Magician of the Holy Flame

[Bleys]

Well let me give you my opinion on this (I don’t if many will agree with me ) but here it is.

This planet is more powerful than you can possibly imagine, it has lasted billions of years, taken blows that are more powerful than our strongest nukes, but it lives on. 100's if not 1000's of species of life are created and destroyed each year, most of which we will never know of. But that’s the way, survival of the fittest.

If we were causing any real damage, the earth would treat us like any other kind of illness, it would find a cure. It would rest and recover, and in hundred million years some other life form would be digging up our bones and making films about us. And probably having the same conversation as us.

As various species cannot adapt to our environment they will die off, but others will adapt and new ones will come and take there place, ones that can live with us, who knows we may have to adapt to them, but that is the way of the world. Lets face it Nature is NOT warm and fluffy thing that we must take care of and protect, It is cold, brutal and it will do Anything to survive.

We must respect nature, we must live with nature, if it changes, we must adapt. That is they way of the world. We have survived because we can adapt to nature, nature will survive because it will adapt to us, if we start to damage it, it will see us a disease and find a cure.

Well that’s my opinion...