Saving Throws

[Dundee Slaytern]

THACO - AC = Number to beat on a 1d20

-4 - -4 = 0

Therefore, you will never miss except on a Critical Miss, which is a roll of 1 on a 1d20.

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by masteraleph: In order to roll a successful save, you have to be at your save number or higher. So if you've got a save vs. spells of 3 and have to save vs. spells, a 3 or higher will work of you. Note that, IIRC, 1 fails, regardless of how good your saves are.

That only applies to THAC0 if I recall correctly. It is possible to lower your saves enough to get a 100% chance of making the save.

[ 03-06-2003, 04:34 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Critical Fails and Passes apply to saving throws as well.

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Critical Fails and Passes apply to saving throws as well.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. To test this, I used a modified Imoen to unleash over 1500 Paralytic Bolts on a character with -1 Saves, 2000 HP and 99% Resistance to Piercing damage, but with no other special modifications or immunities, he was a regular human fighter. took me quite a few Imp Haste scrolls I tell you.

He didn't get stunned a single time. Imoen on the other hand, got well over a hundred Critical Misses and Hits.

[ 03-06-2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Rataxes: Quote: Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Critical Fails and Passes apply to saving throws as well.

I'm pretty sure that's not true.[/QUOTE]I'm pretty sure Rataxes is right. Never noticed that in my game, at least.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Hmmmm... can't test it myself, since I am not in possession of my CDs now. I don't suppose somebody else can do a test as well? To verify the results? I am basing what I am saying on what I have observed in IWD.

BG2 might have modified the rules in their version of the engine, but let the tests decide.

[Xero279]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: THACO - AC = Number to beat on a 1d20 -4 - -4 = 0 Therefore, you will never miss except on a Critical Miss, which is a roll of 1 on a 1d20.

Ya, that makes perfect sense dundee, so if it were -5 - -4 = -1, then you would only miss on a critical miss too, right?

Edit: spelling

[ 03-07-2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Xero279 ]

[Imrahil]

Originally posted by Xero279: Quote: Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: THACO - AC = Number to beat on a 1d20 -4 - -4 = 0 Therefore, you will never miss except on a Critical Miss, which is a roll of 1 on a 1d20.

Ya, that makes perfect sense dundee, so if it were -5 - -4 = -1, then you would only miss on a critical miss too, right?

Edit: spelling[/QUOTE]That's correct. What's missing here is that THAC0 stands for "To HIT AC:0", so it's the value you'd need to roll on a 20-sided die (i.e. 1-20 on a random number generator) if your opponent had AC:0. If your opponent has AC:2, you need to roll 2 less (so if your THAC0 is 5, vs. AC:2 you only need a 3 to hit). Similarly, if your opponent has AC:-2, you need to roll 2 higher (so, your THAC0 is still 5, vs. AC:-2, now you need a 7).

The formula To Hit is "THACO" minus "opponent's AC", but if "opponent's AC" is negative, you get 5 - (-2) & the double-negative turns into a positive (5 + 2), so you need to roll a 7 in this case.

Your THAC0 is only "useful" if your opponent has exactly Armor Class:0 - then your To Hit number is exactly equal to your THAC0. Otherwise you have to modify your To Hit number, by subtracting the target Armor Class. This table may help, for a character with a THAC0 of 5...

opponent AC...........roll needed
-3................8
-2................7
-1................6
0.................5
1.................4
2.................3
3.................2
4.................1
5.................0

So, this character hits AC:0 on a roll of 5 (or better) on a d20 (1-20), just as his THAC0 indicates. If he's facing an opponent with AC: 5, he needs to roll a 0 to hit, so the only way he can actually miss is on a Critical Miss (a roll of 1), which always misses. If he's facing an opponent with AC:-3, he needs to roll an 8 (or better) in order to hit.

This is one area where 3rd Edition makes more logical sense, although, IMO, it may be the only area. [img]smile.gif[/img]

- Imrahil

[EDIT: spaces in the table didn't work, so I added "..."]

[ 03-07-2003, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Imrahil ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Imrahil, I left out the definitions because it might have overwhelmed a person new to AD&D rules.

Irregardless, the formula is always the one that I posted. Simple to understand, and easily applied no matter what your THACO or AC is. The formula is useful even if the opponent's AC is not zero.

[Leslie]

A late post , sorry, but to clear for it for me:

If I have a saving throw of -6, does that mean that I always save vs "x" except maybe for spook (with -6 penalty) ?

Because I can't roll lower than 1.