icon sizing

[manikus]

So, I was looking at the icons of the various giants that Uatu and I have done. There's some good stuff there. I was also thinking about the icons of the dragons that I have recently uploaded. (Which I think are also pretty good.) And, I realized that there is a pretty big size discrepency, not just that the dragons are bigger, but that we're using the 1e sizes for dragons (making them quite a bit smaller) and the 2e sizes for giants (making them quite a bit larger).

What I was wondering, is it worth changing the sizes of one of the sets? A fair amount of DC icons are sized independently of 1e or 2e. For example, all of the animals that appear in the real world (including humans) are sized to the real world.

I would like to hear what everyone thinks, but the people who make icons get a bigger say.
Remember, a valid option is to leave them as they are.

[Uatu]

Not true! Sizes are an iffy thing from 1e to 2e, as follows...

Dragons:
The flat sizes of 1e became the "base sizes" of 2e; however, 2e basically decided that the "base size" would be the 1e size minus the tail of a juvenile (4th age category out of 12) dragon. 1e had 10 age categories (or was that 8?), and vaguely noted that dragons would be bigger or smaller based on age, but was not more exact than that. So, 2e is ONE approximation/specification of 1e's stated sizes, but as 2e also made dragons more powerful in general (well, I guess it is hard to rate, but I think so), I would say that both power and size increased in 2e.

Giants:
Giants were given a size enhancement in 2e as well, directly changing their size values (I think I put up a table in my giants page). I do think that giants were a bit small in 1e (hill giants weren't much different from ogres); bigger giants always make a bigger impression, I say

So, at this point, actually, all of my dragon/giant icons (and manikus' icons, as he followed my table) would match with 2e, not 1e (well, again, the dragons thing is hard to say).

One dragon interpretation of the 1e sizes would of course be to simply use the base size as the whole length of the dragon... which would make them significantly smaller. If we decided to use this interpretation, we could of course use our bigger dragon icons as very old or ancient dragons (from 1e), for example...

[manikus]

So, our dragons are bigger than 1e adults and smaller than 2e adults?

I have no problem with leaving the dragons the size they are now. I do think I may rename all of them as juvenile for my website, and I might make some bigger icons somewhere down the road (far, far down the road ). Or, I may do nothing, as I'm feeling a bit lazy and apathetic at the moment.

[Uatu]

Well, I tried to follow the "middle ground" as one might put it... hopefully the sizes are fine for both 1e and 2e - although, the dragons as they are now (as in the icons) are huge compared to other similar-leveled creatures (as in XP) (so I am guessing that Gary Gygax may not have intended for the tails to be excluded from the sizes given).

If that is true, we could always set the large dragons as the "very old" or "ancient" versions (as the 2e sizes for the older sizes are just ridiculously huge).

If we set the current sizes as the "oldest" versions, we could also have somewhat doable Bahamut/Sardior/Tiamat icons, if we follow suit

[manikus]

Originally Posted by Uatu If we set the current sizes as the "oldest" versions, we could also have somewhat doable Bahamut/Sardior/Tiamat icons, if we follow suit

Speaking of Sardior, my experiment for the gem dragons failed miseably. Back to the drawing board, I guess.
As for Tiamat, I have a sketch somewhere that puts her at about 10 icon squares... (Nothing for Bahamut, as the project I made the sketch for had her battling Marduk.)

[manikus]

Here's a little something I did just for fun.

On the giants image, the short hash marks are every foot, the longer hash marks every five feet.

The giants are from left to right:
cloud, frost, stone, fire, hill, and ettin.

You should be able to figure out the dragons by their color.

click on the image to see full-sized

[Uatu]

Hey, that's pretty cool Looks like we can have a huge battle of all 5 chromatic dragons against some hapless party... The sizes do look quite good together.

The giants also look quite nice together - actually, I had a storm giant icon in the works for quite a while, but I never got around to finishing it (it is still quite rough) - my main problem is fitting him (and his animation) in the small space that I want to fit him in... (Also, the 1e description and art does not mention him using a two-handed sword in combat as 2e does (the damage given is the same, though) - was thinking about what to equip him with (leaning towards nothing, as in 1e art))...

I do want to have a storm giant at some point (the king of giants after all)... No titans, though! Titans and their silly togas!

Too bad about the gem dragons... But what of Tiamat, are you going to "iconify" it?

[Uatu]

Example of gem dragons (young adult/juvenile):

Crystal Dragons
1e:
4-6 HD (20 hp), AC2, Damage 1d4/1d4/2d6 (Breath: blindness, 2/day) (Spells (30%): magic-user: 1/1, druid: 1/1) (Suggestion: 35%)
2e:
10 HD (av. 45 hp), AC 0, Damage 1d6+4/1d6+4/2d6+4 (Breath: 4d4+4 + blindness, once/3 rounds) (Spells: priest: 1)

Amethyst Dragons
1e:
8-10 HD (av. 36 hp), AC -2, Damage 1d8/1d8/5d6 (Breath: death, 2/day) (Spells (50%): magic-user: 1/2/2, druid: 2/1/2/2) (Suggestion: 65%)
2e:
14 HD (av. 63 hp), AC -4, Damage 1d10+4/1d10+4/5d6+4 (Breath: 8d8+4 + unconsciousness, once/3 rounds) (Spells: priest: 1)

As you can see, there is a significant power difference!

(Note, however, that gem dragons used to have a suggestion power that seems to have been lost in 2e.)

[manikus]

I thought I read somewhere that in 1e the gem dragons also had psionics... Is this true?

I've also got a storm giant in the works, and decided against a 2-handed sword. The 2e art I was looking at didn't show him with one, so I though I wouldn't either, just b/c it would make the icon much more space consuming. Actually the 2e Monstrous Compendium just shows a black and white headshot, and the 2e Monstrous Manual has a color version, but the color is wrong- they have him human colored, and incidentally, wearing a toga.

Tiamat~ let's see, if she's 60 feet long, that means that the icon is roughly 10 icon squares...my Tiamat in the works is way too small.

[Uatu]

Oh, that's right - forgot to mention, 1e gem dragons have a 50% chance of having psionics, while 2e gem dragons always have psionics:
Crystal: 100 PSPs, 2 minor disciplines (2e: 1 science, 2 devotions)
Amethyst: 250 PSPs, 3 minor, 2 major disciplines (2e: 3 sciences, 5 devotions)

(There are some other little differences as well...)

Re: storm giants

Yeah, the two-handed sword would basically make the icon several times wider (and higher) than it needs to be... Bare fists might be best (or an electric aura?)...

Re: Tiamat

Well, although the official 2e stats had Tiamat ridiculously huge (360' long with tail), and that is just not doable (in my opinion, anyway), we COULD just assume that the dragons we did already are the maximum (oldest) size, and then maybe Tiamat would be just about 12 squares or so (and Bahamut something like 14, Sardior something like 8) And, if your Tiamat has more body than tail, then... maybe 10?