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Old 09-23-2002, 03:50 PM   #1
SixOfSpades
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I'm looking for background information that's not found within the game of Baldur's Gate itself, so those with vast knowledge of the Forgotten Realms and the AD&D world could really help me out here.

Question 1: I am a Cleric. I want to catch a fish. Am I allowed to go fishing with a fishook, or do I have to use a net, or catch the fish in my bare hands? Once I have the fish, can I use a knife to cut it open & clean it? Can I use a sickle to cut grain? Can I borrow somebody's dagger to use as a letter opener?

Question 2: Do Duergar have any physical characteristics that set them apart from other Dwarves?

Question 3: What is the adjective describing someone from Kara-Tur, or the culture of Kara-Tur? More precisely, if there was a section of Athkatla that was, essentially, Chinatown, what would it be called?

Question 4: Valygar (who hates Necromancers) and Gordon (a postulated new NPC, himself a Necromancer) get into an argument. Valygar says that if Gordon worships Jergal so much, and Jergal wants to protect graves from being defiled, how can Gordon justify all the Skeletons he's been raising? Gordon, backed into a corner, replies that he does not simply rip people from their graves--the Skeletons are of people who *want* to come back and fight; the Animate Dead spell simply gives them the ability to do so.
Is this right? Gordon would not be wrong about something like this, and he also wouldn't tell a lie about it—he's Lawful Neutral.

Question 5: Continuing with the Necromancy theme here—The spell of Death Beyond Death can restore life to the body of a slain creature (Montaron, Valygar, Inspector Aegisfield) as long as the creature was not Undead (it will not work when cast on your vampirized romance). This is because Death Beyond Death is powered by the Posive Energy Plane, and the Undead, who have embraced Life beyond death, draw their strength from the Negative Energy Plane.
Does this idea make any sense at all? Does it conflict with any major points of Priestly/Necromantic magic?

Thanks all!
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Old 09-23-2002, 04:05 PM   #2
tom the strong wizzard
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Quote/ this was posted by SixOfSpades
Question 1: I am a Cleric. I want to catch a fish. Am I allowed to go fishing with a fishook, or do I have to use a net, or catch the fish in my bare hands? Once I have the fish, can I use a knife to cut it open & clean it? Can I use a sickle to cut grain? Can I borrow somebody's dagger to use as a letter opener? quote/

Ya cant fish(for all i know)

quote/ posted by SixOfSpades
Question 2: Do Duergar have any physical characteristics that set them apart from other Dwarves? quote/

No, the dwarves are individuals

quote/ posted by SixOfSpades
Question 3: What is the adjective describing someone from Kara-Tur, or the culture of Kara-Tur? More precisely, if there was a section of Athkatla that was, essentially, Chinatown, what would it be called? quote/

I have no idea

quote/ posted by SixOfSpades
Question 4: Valygar (who hates Necromancers) and Gordon (a postulated new NPC, himself a Necromancer) get into an argument. Valygar says that if Gordon worships Jergal so much, and Jergal wants to protect graves from being defiled, how can Gordon justify all the Skeletons he's been raising? Gordon, backed into a corner, replies that he does not simply rip people from their graves--the Skeletons are of people who *want* to come back and fight; the Animate Dead spell simply gives them the ability to do so.
Is this right? Gordon would not be wrong about something like this, and he also wouldn't tell a lie about it—he's Lawful Neutral. quote/

yes he is, he stand for the rightes of the people dead

quote/ posted by SixOfSpades
Question 5: Continuing with the Necromancy theme here—The spell of Death Beyond Death can restore life to the body of a slain creature (Montaron, Valygar, Inspector Aegisfield) as long as the creature was not Undead (it will not work when cast on your vampirized romance). This is because Death Beyond Death is powered by the Posive Energy Plane, and the Undead, who have embraced Life beyond death, draw their strength from the Negative Energy Plane.
Does this idea make any sense at all? Does it conflict with any major points of Priestly/Necromantic magic? quote/

yes is does, after all Necromatic magic is dealing with death and it doesnt matter how dead some1 is

(I CAN BE WRONG, IF SO SAY THE GOOD AWNSER)
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Old 09-23-2002, 04:14 PM   #3
Timber Loftis
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In answer to some of your Q's:

1. Depends on the god. In FR, some specialty priests can even use bladed weapons (e.g. Tempus). I would say you could save yourself the ethical delimma by using a net. I also think you need to look into why a God would insist its followers use bludgeoning weapons rather than blades or points. Obviously any arguments regarding spilling of blood and lethal vs. non-lethal force would fall by the wayside if you've ever seen what a maul does to a man's head. It might to break the skin, but there's nothing like seeing a jellyfied purple swollen skull. Surely the rules don't extend to disallow cutlery

2. I think Duergar have grey skin, and are oft called Grey Dwarves for this reason.

3. I'm gonna have to cheat off of the Kuo-toan debate and say Kara-Turan or Kara Toan. I have a 2d Ed FR Sourcebook that lists the nomenclature of people from different lands and cities. I don't think it includes any Kara-Tur info, but I'll check.

4. A necromancer who does not want to defile graves does not understand the nature of necromancy.

5. AFAIK, it is a basic rule that the creatures of the negative material plane, e.g. undead, cannot be restored back to life. (I know, there are likely story scenarios out there doing exactly this.) But you can kill 'em real good. You should check out a trilogy of 2d Ed Ravenloft adventures centering around Azalin the Lich and Darkon where the PCs are all turned to undead, as is everything in Darkon when Azalin ascends. I'm sure that's got your answer. One of the trio is called "Ascenscion," I believe.
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Old 09-23-2002, 04:19 PM   #4
Terl
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I can only address 1 and 2.

1. You are a cleric, not a hunter. You do not need to fish when you can Create food and water, as per spell. I think that they also have to hire a tailor, as they can't sew with sharp needles

2. I think that Druegar were described in Dragon as have darker greyish complexion in comparison to normal dwarves, based on them being almost exclusively dwellers deep within the earth.
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Old 09-23-2002, 11:34 PM   #5
SixOfSpades
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Quote:
Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
1. Depends on the god. In FR, some specialty priests can even use bladed weapons (e.g. Tempus). I would say you could save yourself the ethical delimma by using a net. I also think you need to look into why a God would insist its followers use bludgeoning weapons rather than blades or points. Surely the rules don't extend to disallow cutlery.
I'm with you there. C.S. Lewis's That Hideos Strength describes the rules for Druids as not being allowed to use "any edged tool on any living thing." So, theoretically, you could skin your deer with a hunting knife, but if you're digging with a shovel, try to avoid cutting any roots.


4. A necromancer who does not want to defile graves does not understand the nature of necromancy.
But, then, how can I have my Necromancer worship Kelemvor and Jergal without twisting up his psyche? AAAaaggghhhhh!!! He had such a cool personality, too.
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Old 09-24-2002, 06:40 AM   #6
TaSSaDaR
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Timber Loftis mentioned Ravenloft series. Is there a story-book for it, like, say, Dragons Of the Summer Flame for DragonLance? And can you give a link to its online version, if any?

And, can someone name the main author of the series, and main books in it?

[ 09-24-2002, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: TaSSaDaR ]
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Old 09-24-2002, 08:46 AM   #7
Indemaijinj
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Stop stereotyping necromancers! The D&D 3rd ed rules are already bad enough at it!

Basically a necromancy is magic that deals with life, death and the immortal soul. Necromantic magic is often very taboo, but it is not because it is inherently evil in nature but because the powers involved must be given the greatest respect.

Because clerics due to their spirituals careers are more in touch with the concepts of the soul and the afterlife their necromantic powers are often more powerful and more sophisticated than those of wizards who are forced to utilize crude manipulation of positive and negative force (usually negative since the gods have monopolized the use of life magic).

One of the things stated in the 3rd ed rules that provoked my ire the most was that healing and raise dead spells was not necromantic in nature but conjuration. Bullshit! While healing could be viewed upon as conjuring up new flesh to replace damaged flesh most resources seem to indicate that healing works by flooding the recipient with positive energy. Manipulating the flow of positive and negative energy (life and death) is one of the core characteristics about necromancy and thus healing spells must be necromantic in nature.

Also spells such as Raise Dead and Resurrection must surely be necromantic because they affect the soul. They doesn't just form a new body they actually yanks the soul from the dead ones and places it back among the living. This is not achieved through mere conjuration. A conjuration spell might summon forth a devil from hell or a genie from the elemental planes but it doesn't manipulate their souls at all. They simply follow the creatures or stay where they are only sending forth a projection of the conjured creature. With Raise Dead and Resurrection the return of the soul to mortal status is the primary effect, the healing is only secondary.

Death Spells, Fingers of Death, etc. are not nessecarily evil. Not more evil than, say, a Fireball or a Lightning Bolt or a simple sword for that matter. In the wrong hands they can all cause immense horror, grief and unwarranted destruction. What makes killing an enemy with a Finger of Death more wrong than blasting him to death with a fireball or smite him with a sword. The soul of the enemy will proceed to the afterlife no matter what method is used. Necromantic killing spells are novel in the fact that they kill directly, by removing the target's life force. A fireball, a lightning bolt or a sword destroys the body making it unable to maintain life. The end result is the same. Actually one could argue that these killing spells are more humane methods of killing. After all they don't cause any pain.

Animating of the dead is one of the necromantic disciplines that is most taboo. There is two reasons for this.

One reason to abhor the animating of the dead as well as undeath in general is an affront to the natural order. Proponents of this sentiment are common amongst druids (especially those that have had their groves plagued by life-draining undead) as well as certain deities whose portfolio mainly focuses on the sanctity of the eternal rest. Under this sentiment even those who have forgoed their eternal sleep for some greater good (like spectral harpists) are heinous creatures only fit for destruction.

Another reason is the care for the soul. A Resurrection will only work on a soul who is willing to return to life. An Animate Dead spell is much more crude. It utilises the arcane bond between the soul and the body of the deceased to force the soul to power the body through powerful negative energies. Often the soul aren't even given any control of the resulting creation who is an automaton under the control of the responsible cleric or wizard. Many consider this abuse of the soul in question. Still the equation is not as easy.

Imagine this example: A realm known for their powerful wizards and clerics practices conscription, but in a peculiar form. Instead of serving his duty in life a man could choose to reserve this to after his death, thus affirming that his dead body will be available for animating in a given period of time similar to the time he would have served in life. A man might want to choose this option because he didn't want to risk leaving a widow and fatherless children behind. Is the ruler who allows such a policy evil?

Imagine another example: Sir Anomen and Imoen has during some of their heroic campaigns against the mind flayers who traps peoples' minds in neverending nightmares utilised the help of several champions, animated from the dead. Especially benefitting from their immunities to the horrendous brain devouring attack of the illithids. They were in serious doubts about this approach, but finally decided for the plan because the momentarily discomfort of the animated souls were by far overshadowed by the great relief they could bring to the minds trapped by the illithids. Anomen vowed that he would end the skeleton warriors' cursed existence with his clerical powers as soon as their tasks were done. Was Anomen and Imoen doing an evil thing?

Finally, what about the Netheril mages who sacrificed themselves to an unlife of lichdom in order to protect the world from the evil of Kangaxx. Were they evil?
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:08 AM   #8
Timber Loftis
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You certainly have more invested in a discussion of the necromantic than I do, Indemaijinj. But, you should read more closely. I never said anything about evil, nor do I think anyone else did. I simply said they defile graves. Their scientific investigations and experiments with the dead, as well as spells such as raise dead, while certainly not by their very nature *evil*, unquestionably defile the gravesite.

Besides, you go off on quite a [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] regarding religions that don't exist and characters that don't exist and how they relate to an art that doesn't exist and magic which doesn't exist in a world that DOES NOT EXIST. Get a grip. Quite simply, your fiction on what necromancy means might be quite different from another's fiction, say Crowley for example.

TaSSaDaR: Ravenloft (RL) is a setting/campaign world, like Krynn, Oerth, or Faerun - or sort of like them. The older stuff on RL is best. It began w/ a module in 1st ed AD&D, and ballooned into a campaign setting in 2nd ed, which was redesigned a bit for the 2nd ed of 2nd ed (the books were all reprinted, rearranged, and to some degree rethought for all of AD&D just a couple of years before WOTC took over - and RL got quite an overhaul). There are several books from the setting. Your local megaopoly bookstore (Borders, etc) is now shelving all of the WOTC books separately so check there and you'll see a bunch of things to choose from. Nothing beats PnP in RL though - but a player in RL should *NEVER* read up on it, so if you intend to convince your local DM to run a campaign there, do yourself a big favor and steer clear of the source material. I would recommend a decently-mediocre book by P.N. Elrod entitle "I Strahd."
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Old 09-24-2002, 10:30 AM   #9
daan
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I think i read in a very old thread, that clerics could use sickels ...
Might have been druids though,...hmm, im really not being a helpfull person here
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Old 09-24-2002, 12:03 PM   #10
Indemaijinj
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To Timber Loftis: My rant was within the context of the D&D mythology and simply an intellectual exercise, like all role-playing. It's all fictious and I'm totally aware of it.
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