Good versus evil

[AliCat]

On the poll about the Bible and a post comparing J.R.R. Tolkien's books, Fljotsdale (hope you don't mind me referring to you) said that Tolkien had a Christian concept of good versus evil. This got me to thinking, as the primary good versus evil battle begins in Eden, which is Old Testament and thereby originating with Judaism.

Bear with me.

The area I live in is quite fundamentalist/Mennonite, and there is plenty of support for putting prayer or postings of the Ten Commandments back in the schools. This clashes with the whole separation of church and state issue, as well as seems a bit discriminatory towards, say, Wiccans, Buddhists, atheists, or any others outside the Judeo-Christian realm, not to mention a bit intimidating to the same.

So, here are my questions:
1) Does every religion include a concept of good and evil? (and is that a requirement for a religion?)
2) Is there any sort of concept or definition of good and/or evil that is common to all humanity?

I ask these also for other reasons. While having studied and minored in religion, I don't know much about the more obscure ones or sects (say, dianetics, Amerindian or African religions, and so forth). Also, those who usually really push the concept of prayer or the Ten Commandments in school often imply (in letters to the editor in newspapers) that without a bit of religion socked in, humanity would be amoral (with some implication there that atheists in particular have no moral value in society).

So, what do you think?

[Fljotsdale]

What a VERY interesting post! I need to think about it a bit before replying properly, though.

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[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by AliCat: So, here are my questions: 1) Does every religion include a concept of good and evil? (and is that a requirement for a religion?) 2) Is there any sort of concept or definition of good and/or evil that is common to all humanity?

Here are my answers:

1) No.

2) I very much doubt it.

The concept of an almighty good god at war with an all-powerful evil diety in religion is not shared by most shamanic religions, though the duality of ideals opposite to one another exists in every culture. These traits will be decidedly common and varied through out history and religion, for virtues and vice, good and evil, right and wrong, correct and incorrect and other dualities are a human theme.

One different way of thinking is the concept that all opposing values like good/evil exist equally in the divine. The infinite concept of diety cannot seperate itself by it's parts for it is the whole and interconnected within everything. Good, evil, everything, and god are one and the same.

Also while I don't know anything about J.R.R. Tolkiens religious or spiritual life, I dont see anything christian about the L.O.T.R. The concept of conflict vs terrible enemies is the same as the war-driving "Us vs them" mentality. It has nothing to do with religion, but with humanity itself. Our drive to divide ourselves from one another, in a competive struggle. I also doubt Tolkien had any intention of influencing human behavior or belief at an individual level, as is the reason behind any religious writing. If anything the L.O.T.R. reflects the human condition in general and beyond the confining labels of religious affiliation.



[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Hi, AliCat! I have now thought and here is my response:

1) Does every religion include a concept of good and evil? (and is that a requirement for a religion?)

I don’t know. Not to be certain, anyway. I can only offer an opinion based on years of thought, reading, conversation, TV and Radio: I am inclined to think that most, if not all, DO have concepts of bad & good, though these vary in the detail (not in major issues).

2) Is there any sort of concept or definition of good and/or evil that is common to all humanity?

I don’t think a ‘pure’ definition of ‘good & bad’ is possible. At its broadest, ‘good’ is anything that is beneficial, and ‘bad’ is anything that is harmful. But that is too broad to be practical because what is beneficial for the hunter, for example, is harmful to the hunted. So we need to narrow the definition to a personal level, because it is on the personal level that we perceive and act, and our perceptions and actions affect others in our environment.
So, then, on a personal level: selfishness is ‘bad’ (harmful to the individual & others, even though it may seem beneficial at the time - you might gain something), and selfLESSness is ‘good’ (beneficial to the individual & others, even if it seems harmful at the time - you might lose something).

SelfLESSness is the basic ideal of good in all the religions I know anything about, and selfishness the basic root of ‘bad. These concepts are common to all humanity.

My two pennyworth!


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[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by G'kar: Also while I don't know anything about J.R.R. Tolkiens religious or spiritual life, I dont see anything christian about the L.O.T.R. The concept of conflict vs terrible enemies is the same as the war-driving "Us vs them" mentality. It has nothing to do with religion, but with humanity itself. Our drive to divide ourselves from one another, in a competive struggle. I also doubt Tolkien had any intention of influencing human behavior or belief at an individual level, as is the reason behind any religious writing. If anything the L.O.T.R. reflects the human condition in general and beyond the confining labels of religious affiliation. One different way of thinking is the concept that all opposing values like good/evil exist equally in the divine. The infinite concept of diety cannot seperate itself by it's parts for it is the whole and interconnected within everything. Good, evil, everything, and god are one and the same.

My word, G'kar - you DO jump to a lot of unwarrented conclusions!
I hardly think the comment 'Tolkien wrote from a christian viewpoint' warrents the extrapolations you have made! I would thank you not to put words into my mouth (or onto the page!) that I neither said, wrote, or thought! Please!

The concept of god containing both 'good & evil' within itself is one that most people toy with at one time or another, and will probably continue to do for as long as the species exists. But it is rather childish, and most people past their teens abandon it. It is based on the idea that 'if god exists and god created everything then god made eveything that is bad as well as everything that is good: therefore, god is both evil and good.'
However, the mere fact that good & bad are in opposition to each other - 'warring against' each other, if you like - shows that such cannot be the case because 'A city divided against itself will fall'. (An old bible proverb, but proved true countless times).


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[Yorick]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: My word, G'kar - you DO jump to a lot of unwarrented conclusions! I hardly think the comment 'Tolkien wrote from a christian viewpoint' warrents the extrapolations you have made! I would thank you not to put words into my mouth (or onto the page!) that I neither said, wrote, or thought! Please! The concept of god containing both 'good & evil' within itself is one that most people toy with at one time or another, and will probably continue to do for as long as the species exists. But it is rather childish, and most people past their teens abandon it. It is based on the idea that 'if god exists and god created everything then god made eveything that is bad as well as everything that is good: therefore, god is both evil and good.' However, the mere fact that good & bad are in opposition to each other - 'warring against' each other, if you like - shows that such cannot be the case because 'A city divided against itself will fall'. (An old bible proverb, but proved true countless times).

True, but the concept that God created positivity, thus allowing negativity to exist (positive creating being a proactive action, and "allowing negativity" being a passive leaving of the status quo) and coming to the conclusion that this makes God even greater is not a childish one It actually requires some maturity to look at sin being necessary to show forgiveness and thus more and more love.




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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: The concept of an almighty good god at war with an all-powerful evil diety in religion is not shared by most shamanic religions, though the duality of ideals opposite to one another exists in every culture. These traits will be decidedly common and varied through out history and religion, for virtues and vice, good and evil, right and wrong, correct and incorrect and other dualities are a human theme. One different way of thinking is the concept that all opposing values like good/evil exist equally in the divine. The infinite concept of diety cannot seperate itself by it's parts for it is the whole and interconnected within everything. Good, evil, everything, and god are one and the same. Also while I don't know anything about J.R.R. Tolkiens religious or spiritual life, I dont see anything christian about the L.O.T.R. The concept of conflict vs terrible enemies is the same as the war-driving "Us vs them" mentality. It has nothing to do with religion, but with humanity itself. Our drive to divide ourselves from one another, in a competive struggle. I also doubt Tolkien had any intention of influencing human behavior or belief at an individual level, as is the reason behind any religious writing. If anything the L.O.T.R. reflects the human condition in general and beyond the confining labels of religious affiliation. [This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 08-27-2001).]

Tolkien was a Christian, and it is this perspective Fjlotsdale was referring to.



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Yorick]

Alicat I have defined good and evil in human behavioural choices thus:

Good is putting aside ones own agenda for the benefit of another

Evil is putting aside anothers well-being for the pursuit of ones own agenda.

Regarding non choices, I prefer using the terms positivity (life, goodness, growth, something) and negativity (death, evil, retraction, nothing)

A creator God cannot be evil, because before the creation there is nothing - no thing. Allowing something to "be destroyed" or cease to exist is merely stopping the action of continued positivity and it reverting to it's state of existance before God - non-existance - rather than him proactively enacting negativity.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 08-27-2001).]

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Yorick: True, but the concept that God created positivity, thus allowing negativity to exist (positive creating being a proactive action, and "allowing negativity" being a passive leaving of the status quo) and coming to the conclusion that this makes God even greater is not a childish one It actually requires some maturity to look at sin being necessary to show forgiveness and thus more and more love.

Oh, what a relief, lol! We are back to disagreeing!

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