Agree or disagree with the war, but support the men and women who have to fight it

Memnoch · 03-19-2003, 08:36 AM

Just a reminder that whether or not we support this coming war against Iraq, we shouldn't take it out on the men and women who are just doing what their countries asked them to.

--------------------------
A division our troops should not have to face
March 20 2003

Australian military personnel, writes Miranda Devine, have a battle on their hands without a war of words, too.

The Greens leader, Bob Brown, was on radio yesterday ramping up his anti-war rhetoric, the day after cabinet committed Australian troops to the Gulf, proclaiming "the Prime Minister has sent 2000 people off to face death in the sands of Iraq".

A short time later, the father of a soldier rang 2UE host John Laws, in tears: "These kids are going over to defend their country and do their best. They need support ... They don't want people protesting here against what they're doing. All the protests in the world aren't going to stop this war now." And that is the point.

Anti-war protests made some sense before our troops were committed, so those opposed to Australian involvement in Iraq could send a message to Canberra. But now they just appear to be the futile gesture of sore losers who don't care who they hurt.

Protesters should understand they have lost the argument. Whatever your position on the war, the only outcome of continuing activism is to create more discord and division at a time when troops need to know they are supported at home.

And for some Vietnam veterans, like former 7RAR grunt Tony Blake, 54, of Bowral, community division over war in Iraq is bringing back painful memories.

"It's happening again," he said yesterday. "We're looking around at what these clowns [anti-war activists] are doing and there's a huge feeling of deja vu. Haven't they learnt anything from Vietnam?" He says fellow veterans are even concerned Anzac Day marches will be targeted.

Some of that disquiet spilt over at a meeting yesterday of the local sub-branch at the Mittagong RSL Club. The Alexander Room "erupted" angrily, said Blake, when one serving soldier told how defence personnel at the Richmond RAAF base were under orders to change into civilian clothes to go into town. The reason, claimed the 41-year-old Timor veteran, was that soldiers and airmen had been "abused and spat on". The sub-branch immediately drafted a letter to the RSL executive condemning the order as a "disgrace".

"The main feeling is anger," the Timor vet said later on the phone, "because we're proud to wear our uniforms in public."

He said the Routine Order, or RO, has been in place for about a month and asked that his name not be published. A Defence spokesman yesterday refused to confirm any order, saying it was a "security" matter. A spokeswoman for the Defence Minister, Robert Hill, confirmed a "minor incident" some weeks ago but said "generally" the public had been supportive of the troops.

Last month there were reports defence personnel in Townsville had been abused and called warmongers, and there have been rumours of similar incidents in Nowra.

Blake, who is on a permanent incapacity pension due to post-traumatic stress, remembered this week the pretty young teacher who gave him a lift when he was hitchhiking in Wollongong in 1971. He was 22 and had been back from Vietnam two months."You're a baby-killer," she told him.

"I was totally shocked, just overwhelmed," he said yesterday. "Until this week I hadn't thought of that for 10 years or more." He remembers how young soldiers returning from the horrors of Vietnam were spat on, screamed at, shunned, had paint and blood thrown on them. They were sent home at midnight to empty airports that had been locked to keep out protesters.

So he and his fellow veterans want to do whatever they can to ensure the same doesn't happen to Australian troops in the Persian Gulf. "We're mentioning this now by way of nipping it in the bud before it gets out of hand," he said. "I just hope that today's protesters are more intelligent than the ones in the Vietnam era."

But anti-war rhetoric, including from politicians, is not helping, and prompted the Prime Minister, John Howard, to say on Tuesday: "I say to people who disagree - have your beef with me, do not have your beef with the men and women of the Australian Defence Force. They are brave, courageous, young Australians who will need our support, our prayers, our encouragement and our thoughts."

The histrionics of the Opposition Leader, Simon Crean, the same day were ill-judged: "This is a black day for Australia, it's a black day for Australia and it's a black day for international co-operation." Not only has Crean become the first Opposition leader to oppose a conflict in which Australian troops are fighting, he even tried to politicise the troops themselves.

In January, at a farewell to sailors on HMAS Kanimbla, he said: "I don't believe that you should be going." Crean has stated he supports Australian troops, but it is a difficult distinction to make. No wonder his standing in opinion polls is so low, beaten by Howard's popularity which remains at pre-Bali levels despite the fact he has committed the nation to an unpopular war.

In fact, support for the decision to commit troops may not be as shaky as many believe. Laws said he believed there was a "silent majority who support the Prime Minister". He points to a phone poll he ran asking: "Is John Howard right to commit Australian troops to a war on Iraq?" and found 9406 (87.13 per cent) of callers voted "yes", while 1389 (12.87 per cent) voted "no". While phone polls are self-selecting and notoriously inaccurate, Laws feels the results show strong community sentiment the likes of which he has never seen in 50 years on radio.

In the end, no one hates war more than a soldier, as Blake said yesterday. "The protesters have to understand that there are no people more anti-war than the people who've actually fought war."

But there are still Sydneysiders who are against the war but have found a way to support the troops while maintaining their integrity. One letter writer to the Herald yesterday said her protest would be to lay flowers at the Cenotaph in Martin Place as a "reminder of the consequences of battles and the effects on those left behind".

It is a sentiment worth remembering, no matter what side of the fence you are on, as our soldiers do their duty in our name.

Source: www.smh.com.au

Ronn_Bman · 03-19-2003, 08:52 AM

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

All men and women who put their lives at risk to protect our respective nations deserve the highest respect.

Larry_OHF · 03-19-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

All men and women who put their lives at risk to protect our respective nations deserve the highest respect.

I agree. I honor them all, and shun those that would blame the soldiers for what is to come.

Nachtrafe · 03-19-2003, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

All men and women who put their lives at risk to protect our respective nations deserve the highest respect.

Absofrigginlutely!

It's not a soldier's job to question orders or dictate policy, it's just their job to obey orders. Villifying the boys and girls in khaki(or whatever color your military wears) just isn't right, no matter your 'motivation'.

Grojlach · 03-19-2003, 09:27 AM

Fair enough.
If only wars were fought with rubber bullets, tranquilizers and chewing gum bombs instead...

[ 03-19-2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Masklinn · 03-19-2003, 09:28 AM

If you don't mind I will respect and honor Iraqi soldiers as well because they are just doing what their country asked them to.

Davros · 03-19-2003, 09:32 AM

I am with you Memsie - 100 percent [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Grojlach · 03-19-2003, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Masklinn:
If you don't mind I will respect and honor Iraqi soldiers as well because they are just doing what their country asked them to.

I agree... But I suppose Memnoch meant that as well. The Iraqi soldiers are for the largest part as unwilling as the "Western" soldiers.

Though I definitely don't agree with the message in the article (that we shouldn't protest the war just because it's inevitable - "sore losers?" yeah right

), I'll keep it in mind.

Nachtrafe · 03-19-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Masklinn:
If you don't mind I will respect and honor Iraqi soldiers as well because they are just doing what their country asked them to.

Dont mind at all Masklinn.

You're right. For the most part, most of the Iraqi soldiers are just doing what their leader asks them to do. Hopefully they will have sense enough to lay down their arms and surrender like they did in the last Gulf War. If they dont have that sense, then I'll mourn them too.

PS: It's probably good that you put in the words 'as well' in your post, or I imagine my response would have been a lot less polite.

Masklinn · 03-19-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

PS: It's probably good that you put in the words 'as well' in your post, or I imagine my response would have been a lot less polite.

You still believe that France is supporting Saddam or what ?

I will pray for both sides.
Cause they're all men (and women) who think what they're doing is the right thing and will kill each other for that.

I pray for the less casualties possible. Noone deserve that.

03-19-2003, 08:36 AM	#1
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Just a reminder that whether or not we support this coming war against Iraq, we shouldn't take it out on the men and women who are just doing what their countries asked them to. -------------------------- A division our troops should not have to face March 20 2003 Australian military personnel, writes Miranda Devine, have a battle on their hands without a war of words, too. The Greens leader, Bob Brown, was on radio yesterday ramping up his anti-war rhetoric, the day after cabinet committed Australian troops to the Gulf, proclaiming "the Prime Minister has sent 2000 people off to face death in the sands of Iraq". A short time later, the father of a soldier rang 2UE host John Laws, in tears: "These kids are going over to defend their country and do their best. They need support ... They don't want people protesting here against what they're doing. All the protests in the world aren't going to stop this war now." And that is the point. Anti-war protests made some sense before our troops were committed, so those opposed to Australian involvement in Iraq could send a message to Canberra. But now they just appear to be the futile gesture of sore losers who don't care who they hurt. Protesters should understand they have lost the argument. Whatever your position on the war, the only outcome of continuing activism is to create more discord and division at a time when troops need to know they are supported at home. And for some Vietnam veterans, like former 7RAR grunt Tony Blake, 54, of Bowral, community division over war in Iraq is bringing back painful memories. "It's happening again," he said yesterday. "We're looking around at what these clowns [anti-war activists] are doing and there's a huge feeling of deja vu. Haven't they learnt anything from Vietnam?" He says fellow veterans are even concerned Anzac Day marches will be targeted. Some of that disquiet spilt over at a meeting yesterday of the local sub-branch at the Mittagong RSL Club. The Alexander Room "erupted" angrily, said Blake, when one serving soldier told how defence personnel at the Richmond RAAF base were under orders to change into civilian clothes to go into town. The reason, claimed the 41-year-old Timor veteran, was that soldiers and airmen had been "abused and spat on". The sub-branch immediately drafted a letter to the RSL executive condemning the order as a "disgrace". "The main feeling is anger," the Timor vet said later on the phone, "because we're proud to wear our uniforms in public." He said the Routine Order, or RO, has been in place for about a month and asked that his name not be published. A Defence spokesman yesterday refused to confirm any order, saying it was a "security" matter. A spokeswoman for the Defence Minister, Robert Hill, confirmed a "minor incident" some weeks ago but said "generally" the public had been supportive of the troops. Last month there were reports defence personnel in Townsville had been abused and called warmongers, and there have been rumours of similar incidents in Nowra. Blake, who is on a permanent incapacity pension due to post-traumatic stress, remembered this week the pretty young teacher who gave him a lift when he was hitchhiking in Wollongong in 1971. He was 22 and had been back from Vietnam two months."You're a baby-killer," she told him. "I was totally shocked, just overwhelmed," he said yesterday. "Until this week I hadn't thought of that for 10 years or more." He remembers how young soldiers returning from the horrors of Vietnam were spat on, screamed at, shunned, had paint and blood thrown on them. They were sent home at midnight to empty airports that had been locked to keep out protesters. So he and his fellow veterans want to do whatever they can to ensure the same doesn't happen to Australian troops in the Persian Gulf. "We're mentioning this now by way of nipping it in the bud before it gets out of hand," he said. "I just hope that today's protesters are more intelligent than the ones in the Vietnam era." But anti-war rhetoric, including from politicians, is not helping, and prompted the Prime Minister, John Howard, to say on Tuesday: "I say to people who disagree - have your beef with me, do not have your beef with the men and women of the Australian Defence Force. They are brave, courageous, young Australians who will need our support, our prayers, our encouragement and our thoughts." The histrionics of the Opposition Leader, Simon Crean, the same day were ill-judged: "This is a black day for Australia, it's a black day for Australia and it's a black day for international co-operation." Not only has Crean become the first Opposition leader to oppose a conflict in which Australian troops are fighting, he even tried to politicise the troops themselves. In January, at a farewell to sailors on HMAS Kanimbla, he said: "I don't believe that you should be going." Crean has stated he supports Australian troops, but it is a difficult distinction to make. No wonder his standing in opinion polls is so low, beaten by Howard's popularity which remains at pre-Bali levels despite the fact he has committed the nation to an unpopular war. In fact, support for the decision to commit troops may not be as shaky as many believe. Laws said he believed there was a "silent majority who support the Prime Minister". He points to a phone poll he ran asking: "Is John Howard right to commit Australian troops to a war on Iraq?" and found 9406 (87.13 per cent) of callers voted "yes", while 1389 (12.87 per cent) voted "no". While phone polls are self-selecting and notoriously inaccurate, Laws feels the results show strong community sentiment the likes of which he has never seen in 50 years on radio. In the end, no one hates war more than a soldier, as Blake said yesterday. "The protesters have to understand that there are no people more anti-war than the people who've actually fought war." But there are still Sydneysiders who are against the war but have found a way to support the troops while maintaining their integrity. One letter writer to the Herald yesterday said her protest would be to lay flowers at the Cenotaph in Martin Place as a "reminder of the consequences of battles and the effects on those left behind". It is a sentiment worth remembering, no matter what side of the fence you are on, as our soldiers do their duty in our name. Source: www.smh.com.au __________________

03-19-2003, 08:52 AM	#2
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] All men and women who put their lives at risk to protect our respective nations deserve the highest respect. __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

03-19-2003, 09:28 AM	#6
Masklinn Avatar Join Date: January 12, 2003 Location: Paris, France Age: 45 Posts: 594	If you don't mind I will respect and honor Iraqi soldiers as well because they are just doing what their country asked them to. __________________ <br /><br />-=roaar=-

03-19-2003, 09:32 AM	#7
Davros Takhisis Follower Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Mandurah, West Australia Age: 61 Posts: 5,073	I am with you Memsie - 100 percent [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] __________________ Davros was right - just ask JD

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Grojlach Zartan Join Date: May 2, 2001 Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum Age: 44 Posts: 5,281	Fair enough. If only wars were fought with rubber bullets, tranquilizers and chewing gum bombs instead... [ 03-19-2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

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