Why bother debating this?

[The Hierophant]

The more I read on this subject, the more plain it becomes that the US government (not necessarily the US people as a majority whole) never had any intention of averting a war in Iraq. Constant efforts are made to justify the war, to make the case for Iraq's WoMD etc.
But why bother?
The bottom line of American Republican reasoning appears to be 'look folks, we want this done, we want it done now, we're going to do it, you can't stop us, it'd be real nice of you just went along with it quietly and didn't kick up all this fuss'.
The voice of opposition seems to be 'you're aggressive and greedy imperialist conquerors. Stop all of this war-mongering for oil. Why can't you just let the chips fall where they may?'.
Both sides endlessly shout at each other with closed ears and call it a 'debate'. Yet I'm pretty much following my gut feeling that I can trust neither 'side' in this argument. Everyone seems to be holier than thou on the outside, sinful as hell on the inside. Democracy in action? My ass! All major players want a pice of the pie in Iraq. Hand-wringers and opportunists are circling like vultures. I'm getting sick of all of this faux-reasoning about morality. Anyone else feel the same way?
The hawks have made it clear that they are going to use force to get their way. What I ask the doves is what the hell are you going to do about it besides launching 'peaceful protest'? Try opposing a warrior with an olive branch and you'll be struck down, thrown in a ditch and forgotten to history like so many other pacifists. As much as it galls me, I'd say that the American Republican Government, that brazen, insolent collection of apathetic elitists is going to win through on this, all because they have the guns and no one bar a loose collection of terrorist guerillas is willing to oppose them with like force. The global peaceful protests have accomplished nothing! The precedent is going to be set here in that the current American government can invade whoever they want, regardless of UN authorization! And all that can be done is sit and watch the TV screen, shaking our heads or cheering them on depend on which side of the fence we sit! As a non-US citizen I cannot help but feel a deep sense of forboding that it could just as well be my country next if rich resources should ever be discovered here and our government is unwilling to co-operate with that of America (no-nuke policy anyone? They cancelled ANZUS because we didn;t want nuke ships in our harbours. Oh yes indeed, they care alot). With all of the US media resouces at it's disposal our land could be demonized just as is being done to Germany and France now. What could we do? Just go out with a wimper crying 'victim victim' like so many others in history? I can't stomach that thought. This is bad news for the world, and that the elitist few of world leaders are willing to ignore the pleas of their people and suck up to President Bush disturbs me even more (Jose Maria Aznar, sleeping in Bushes guestroom while his people turn out in their millions to oppose the war!).

Let's drop the bullshit. You're either with the Bush administration or against them. They shall accept no middle ground. I sure as hell am not with them, so I guess I should get started on weapons training.

-The Hierophant
ill-informed, irrational, angry young man extraordinaire

[Felix The Assassin]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: Felix, edit (snip)! Let's drop the bullshit. You're either with the Bush administration or against them. They shall accept no middle ground. I sure as hell am not with them, so I guess I should get started on weapons training. -The Hierophant ill-informed, irrational, angry young man extraordinaire

Well now.
If you want me to kill, then you must deploy me, give me beans, bullets, and fuel.
Since I'm sitting here writing to this forum, it must be evident that I ain't deployed (yet). And with "the vote" being postponed, the talk of not enough in monetary assests, and the world opinion slowly changing, who knows if we will deploy. Sure, CNN can keep running clips from the folks who are deployed, but to the trained eye, well......
Give me an objective, I'll take it...and mark it with my Stars and Stripes.
Give me a mission, I'll accomplish it...and call it good training.
Give me peace, I'll train your sons and daughters...and call it proficiency.
Give me a war, I'll kill...and call it Been there, Done That, whats next?

That is what I like about this forum. You can be yourself, express it as you desire, and learn about how others feel!

I am an American
I fight the forces that oppose my nation, be it foreign or domestic.
I will survive.
I am an American
I pound the ground beneath me with 72 US tons of mobile death and destruction.
You can run, I will catch you.
You can Hide, I will find you.
If you join me I will call you comrad.
If you oppose me, you will feel the wraith of a 120mm DU round comming at ya!

So, I am with President Bush.
Are You?
Felix

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Felix The Assassin: So, I am with President Bush. Are You? Felix

I'm afraid not Felix. I guess we're on different sides then. Whether you or I ever end up face to face isn't for us to know. But win or lose, there'll be plenty of time for the two of us to reconcile in hell. I'll see you there buddy.

[Moiraine]

Hierophant, I believe more and more that what is mainly at stake here is not Saddam Hussein, not even oil, but the position of world leader. I believe the main intentions of Bush were, let's make a 'fait accompli' of our position as world leader, quick, before the European Union becomes a true political entity able to challenge us.

I think Chirac made a similar gambit - seeing an unique opportunity of affirming a tighter political unity of the European countries - and incidentally pushing France in front of it ...

I am not so sure now that Bush will wage that war if the UN don't support him. Because if he does so, even if he wins that war - he has lost, in front of all the nations and people who do not want a war.

I can read, here and in papers, the opinion that the UN are no use. And that, if France uses its veto right, it will show that the UN don't work. Hey, the veto right is included of the status of the UN ! That means that, although it is an extreme action, it IS part of the functional UN settings.

I have the same kind of opinion about the UN and about the European Union. Both are very young in a historic perspective. Of course they are not perfect yet ! It would be very surprising if they were already. Attempting to create an entity that supersede nations and is not an empire is a premiere in the history of mankind, and it will take time to grow. If I look at the history of France, I see that it took 1000 years to make the concept of a French nation fully work. We are expecting too much too soon from the UN and the European Union.

When two people get married, do they expect that there will never be disagreements and even fights ? Will they divorce at the first clash between two conflicting opinions ?

When someone builds a new device and the first prototype doesn't work as expected, will he throw the whole concept away, or will he try again, correct the mistakes and make a better one ?

About the UN, will we "throw the baby with the bath water" as the French saying goes ? Or believe that the concept is good, and that we will learn from our mistakes and eventually make it work together ?

As about what we can do here and now, and why it is important that we keep discussing. Talking together is the only way to get our minds open. Talking is the best way to keep in mind that we are all worthy people, with a good heart and a good mind, and not give way to the ugliness of country bashing. Talking together helps us sort between whatever propaganda our media try to feed us.

And remember that ultimately, in our democracies, we have the vote. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[The Hierophant]

I hear you Moiraine. A strong USE would truly give the USA a run for it's money. Imagine the strength! So far a good job has been done of dividing Europe once again. Britain, Italy, Spain and the Balkans vs. France and Germany (and Russia). A situation of disunity exists once more, just as it has for the past millenium. Scattered, leaderless and weak. The strength of the USA is derived from it's unity, the fundamental focus of it's own civil war. If Europe could gain it's own unity, if US patsy's like Blair and Aznar could be removed and new focal figures implemented to create a new European Nationalism... well, there would be a new superpower on the planet. It's time to get organized.
And I'd also agree that this forum has done alot to dispell geographical prejudice. Whether or not one is wise enough to put aside anger and accept the wisdom gained herein is another matter entirely. I don't know if I'm man enough to do that yet...

[Spelca]

Originally posted by Moiraine: And remember that ultimately, in our democracies, we have the vote. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Lately it doesn't seem so. Lots of the European leaders are doing the opposite of what their people want them to. In Slovenia, for example, a large majority (according to the latest statistics) are against supporing the US in their war against Iraq, yet our Government openly support them; they even signed a document (Vilinius something - don't know what it's called in English). So what was really the point of voting when the government does the opposite? I voted for the government because they, amongst other things, promised me peace. And now they want to go to war, because they want to suck up to the strong ones.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Spelca: I voted for the government because they, amongst other things, promised me peace. And now they want to go to war, because they want to suck up to the strong ones.

Exactly! Wars will be waged in the name of defending democracy. Defending the right to vote. The right to vote for WHAT?! The right to vote for whatever is dictated to you in the guise of 'freedom of choice'. 'Choose your leader freely so long as they support our status quo'. The leader's of our great world democracy have done nothing in the interests of the people who work hard every day to bring them their power and luxury! These cretinous yes-men straggle along behind the big-game hunters and flip-flop whenever the opportunity to take a scrap of the carcass arises. This farce of democracy gives you nothing but stagnation in complacency Spelca. 'Oh, we're so lucky, we live in a democracy! We're free to choose our leaders'. There is no freedom in the vote. You vote for a select few that have met set parameters for election and have legal authorization to run for office. Ie: their ways of thinking won't rock the precious social boat too much. It is a joke.
Spelca friend, it is time for us to take a long, hard assessment of who our real enemies are.

[skywalker]

Moiraine

This is the best take on the UN and EU that I have ever read. A perfect post on this issue IMHO. If there is any disagreement, that will just have to be worked out. The World's Nations should not be lemmings, following the strongest loudest viewpoints, all sides need to listen, that's all.

Thanx for posting!

Mark

[Ronn_Bman]

I don't know, to me this sounds like a bunch of "it's not being done the way I want, so it's wrong, and the whole system is worthless because if it's not being done my way nothing is really being done."

Republican War? That is so.. much... BS!

You think Democracy is a lie? I imagine that in Iraq, or any other dictatorial nation, you could protest, bitch, and complain, but I wonder how long you'd get to do it? Maybe someone in Iraq could sponsor a "turn over the weapons" protest and burn pictures of Saddam to get their government's attention? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

[ 02-24-2003, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Felix The Assassin]

[/qb][/QUOTE]I'm afraid not Felix. I guess we're on different sides then. Whether you or I ever end up face to face isn't for us to know. But win or lose, there'll be plenty of time for the two of us to reconcile in hell. I'll see you there buddy.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Well now, I just really looked at your signature, and your registration location.
Makes me think. Think a lot.
I will not bore all with my family's military lineage, but we have been in one form or another in every major war since the American Revolutionary!
My late Father, was a SeeBee in WWII. I remember some great tales when he was in the mood for conversation. He spent 62 weeks island hoping in the South Pacific. He was a crane operator and they built airstrips. He spent his start and end tour days on a island called New Zealnd.
Unfortuneatly I do not know much else, he was a very quiet man, and did not talk much of his war years.

I fear no evil, for I have traversed the sands of a place called Hell. It was in a place called the Holy Land, and we were the infidels. We would fall to the warriors of Allah. Well Now, we all know the outcome of DS. So, I have done my time in Hell, and shall hold a place for you at the Pearly Gates and will await your arrival.

I do agree, "the enemy of my enemy may not be my friend, but we have something in common" So True!

Felix