First 9/11 Trial Ends with Conviction - in Germany

Timber Loftis · 02-19-2003, 03:32 PM

Well, for devisiveness between the US and Germany, go seek the War Forum. But, here's a tale of Germany doing (a bit) right by the US.

From my take, the 15 yr. maximum sentence (which will be 10 maximum served) is much too little. The guy admitting to training at Al Queda camps, for crying out loud. Plus, without 9/11 victim's family testimony, the judge said finding for even this much would have been too hard - as this fanatic nut has 2 small children. Great... the need to train more extremists is now a mitigating factor in sentencing. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img] But, he did get the max in Germany, so it's a victory.

With any luck, the prison system there will do to him what the prison system here would. *ducks*

-----------------------------
In Germany, First Trial on 9/11 Plot Ends With Conviction
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 2:11 p.m. ET

HAMBURG, Germany (AP) -- A Moroccan student was convicted Wednesday of more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder for helping Mohamed Atta and two other suicide pilots in the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, ending the first trial connected to the suicide hijackings.

Mounir el Motassadeq, 28, was sentenced to the maximum 15 years in prison for helping the Hamburg-based al-Qaida terror cell that included Atta, the lead hijacker and two other suicide pilots.

In addition to the 3,066 counts of accessory to murder, he was convicted of five counts of accessory to attempted murder and accessory to causing bodily injury. Those charges were added to allow five people wounded in the attacks, including a Naval officer at the Pentagon, to join the trial as co-plaintiffs.

El Motassadeq denied the charges during his 3 1/2-month trial, and his lawyers had demanded acquittal.

But Judge Albrecht Mentz sided with prosecutors' argument that a complex mosaic of evidence proved the defendant was ``a cog that kept the machinery going.''

``The accused belonged to this group since its inception,'' Mentz said in reading the verdict. ``He knew and approved the key elements of the planned attacks.''

El Motassadeq has acknowledged knowing six other alleged members of the Hamburg cell -- Atta and two other suicide pilots, Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi; and organizers Ramzi Binalshibh, Said Bahaji and Zakariya Essabar. But he says he knew nothing of their plans.

While suspects in the plot detained in the United States face a possible death sentence if convicted, el Motassadeq's 15-year sentence will translate into a minimum of 10 years under German law.

The verdict was praised by relatives of Sept. 11 victims who joined the case as co-plaintiffs, as allowed under German law, and some of whom testified against el Motassadeq. Around 20 relatives and survivors joined the case.

Joan Molinaro of New York City, whose son Carl Molinaro was a firefighter killed at the World Trade Center, said she was ``thrilled.''

``I think it's the first small victory we've had since 9/11,'' Molinaro, who testified in the trial, told AP. ``I kind of feel like, 'OK Carl, we got one.' ... I think my son is smiling. We got one.''

Another New Yorker, Bill Doyle, who lost his son, Joseph, said he was ``pleased'' and that the prosecutors did an excellent job.

``German courts are a lot different, and the maximum over there is 15 years, so he got the maximum. In the U.S. courts, more than likely he would have gotten life,'' Doyle said.

``They wanted justice and they got justice,'' said Ulrich von Jeinsen, the lawyer who represented the Americans. ``They accept that we have another system and since he got the maximum sentence they will be satisfied.''

Presiding Judge Mentz said moving testimony by family members helped persuade the five-judge panel to deliver the maximum sentence -- which might have otherwise been difficult for the court, which also considered that el Motassadeq is the father of two young children.

``This is a success in the fight against international terrorism,'' said Interior Minister Otto Schily. ``It is a warning to all those who think they can toy with the idea of aligning themselves with terrorist networks.''

Schily called the penalty ``very harsh.''

A slight, bearded man, el Motassadeq sat between his lawyers and showed no emotion as the verdict was read.

Prosecutors allege el Motassadeq used his power of attorney over al-Shehhi's bank account to pay rent, tuition and utility bills, allowing the plotters to keep up the appearance of being normal students in Germany. Prosecutors also pointed to the fact that he signed Atta's will.

Witnesses testified that el Motassadeq was as radical as the rest of the group, talking of jihad -- holy war -- and his hatred of Israel and the United States.

El Motassadeq himself admitted training in one of Osama bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan in 2000.

But he said he was simply providing an innocent service to friends and that he took weapons training in Afghanistan because he believed all Muslims should learn to shoot.

The prospect of el Motassadeq's imprisonment in Germany raised security fears even before the verdict. Terrorists might attempt hijackings or kidnappings to free him, said Bavaria's top security official, Interior Minister Guenter Beckstein.

The Hamburg case, coupled with a possible Iraq war, has led some German authorities to step up surveillance of likely suspects who might be planning attacks, though there is no evidence of any specific threats for now, Beckstein told ZDF television.

Germany's federal anti-crime agency said no nationwide measures were being taken, but the states were free to increase security.

El Motassadeq's lawyers tried several times unsuccessfully to obtain testimony by two of his friends, Ramzi Binalshibh and Mohammed Haydar Zammar -- a lack of evidence that the lawyers say could be grounds for an appeal in case of a guilty verdict.

Binalshibh, a Yemeni suspect in U.S. custody, is believed to have been the Hamburg cell's key contact with al-Qaida. Zammar, an alleged al-Qaida recruiter in Hamburg, is in prison in Syria.

The court could not get the men released to testify and German authorities refused to turn over their files on the two, saying transcripts of their interrogations were provided to them on condition they only be used for intelligence purposes.

El Motassadeq, the son of a middle-class family, came to Germany in 1993 to study. By 1995, he was studying electrical engineering in Hamburg, where he is believed to have first met Atta by the following year.

Wutang · 02-19-2003, 04:32 PM

I'd like to know what happens after 15 years is up and he goes free?

Will he still help plot another attack on America like before or will he be reformed?

I don't think spending time in jail is likely to change his views on America nor Israel.

I'm just concerned that once he gets out, he'll hook up with more of his buddies planning the next attack.

Djinn Raffo · 02-19-2003, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wutang:
I'd like to know what happens after 15 years is up and he goes free?

Will he still help plot another attack on America like before or will he be reformed?

I don't think spending time in jail is likely to change his views on America nor Israel.

I'm just concerned that once he gets out, he'll hook up with more of his buddies planning the next attack.

That concern could be said for any criminal guilty of any crime after he/she has just recieved his/her sentencing.

[ 02-19-2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

Timber Loftis · 02-19-2003, 04:44 PM

1. It's not 15 yrs - it's the standard 2/3 time + parole - or 10 yrs.
2. Who knows how he'll change in prison over a decade. Maybe the same thing will occur - maybe not. Plus, he'd certainly be watched. I'm sure Al Queda, like the mob, can use operatives inside prisons. But, this is the reason I hope some horrible prison-type fate befalls him within that time period.

Ronn_Bman · 02-19-2003, 05:04 PM

Conviction on 3,066 counts of accessory to murder plus 5 counts of accessory to attempted murder and accessory to causing bodily injury resulting in a 10 year sentence?

That's less than a day of punishment for each count he of which he was convicted. If it's the max under German law, then there isn't much that could have been done, but does anyone really think that's appropriate?

Before anyone reads my mind, I'll admit killing him wouldn't bring the dead back.

Then again, setting him free in 10 years won't bring them back either, and I can't see how his eventual freedom makes the world a better place. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

I guess their is some good news. Since he was arrested, detained, and prosecuted by the German government, no one can claim the US railroaded the guy.

Wutang · 02-19-2003, 05:25 PM

Djinn - Agreed but then we aren't really dealing with a petty thief in this case.

As for prison accidents...I do remember about Rudolph Hess commiting suicide in prison...but was it really suicide or a prison job?

I think I saw an episode on Unsolved Mysteries about Hess. They theorize that the Russians probably killed him as it was very odd for the guard to leave Hess alone.

Hess I think was going to leave Spandau prison I believe and he would have divulged a lot of secrets. Secrets probably no one wanted to have exposed.

BTW, Hitler write Mein Kampf in prison. That time in jail certainly didn't change his views.

[ 02-19-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ]

Ar-Cunin · 02-19-2003, 06:43 PM

The 15 year sentense was the maximum he could be given - and got [img]smile.gif[/img]

Considering the case was solely based on circumstantial evidence it isn't too bad.

Timber Loftis · 02-19-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin:
The 15 year sentense was the maximum he could be given - and got [img]smile.gif[/img]

Considering the case was solely based on circumstantial evidence it isn't too bad.

Good points.

My querry - why so low a limit on 3066 counts of conspiracy to commit murder??? In the US, we would take the base penalty(X), and sentence the guy to 3066 separate prison terms of X years, to run consecutively.

Ronn_Bman · 02-19-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin:
The 15 year sentense was the maximum he could be given - and got [img]smile.gif[/img]

Considering the case was solely based on circumstantial evidence it isn't too bad.

Actually, since the evidence was enough to convict, then 10 years is pretty bad.

Of course, I'm not an expert on German court evidence rules.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

I don't disparage those who prosecuted this case or think they let the guy off easy on purpose. They prosecuted him well and sentenced him, if I understand things correctly, to the fullest extent their law allowed.

I heard speculation on the news tonight about a possible extradition to the US after he's released? Obviously if he could be, there would have to be the promise of no death penalty, but that's not what I'm wondering about. I just wonder if he could be tried again here for the same crimes?

[ 02-19-2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Sir Taliesin · 02-20-2003, 01:19 AM

I wouldn't worry to much about him, Timber. After he gets out, he'll be deported to Morroco. I'm sure the secret police there will love to interview him. And it won't be gentle, like the Germans did either!

02-19-2003, 03:32 PM	#1
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	Well, for devisiveness between the US and Germany, go seek the War Forum. But, here's a tale of Germany doing (a bit) right by the US. From my take, the 15 yr. maximum sentence (which will be 10 maximum served) is much too little. The guy admitting to training at Al Queda camps, for crying out loud. Plus, without 9/11 victim's family testimony, the judge said finding for even this much would have been too hard - as this fanatic nut has 2 small children. Great... the need to train more extremists is now a mitigating factor in sentencing. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img] But, he did get the max in Germany, so it's a victory. With any luck, the prison system there will do to him what the prison system here would. ducks ----------------------------- In Germany, First Trial on 9/11 Plot Ends With Conviction By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 2:11 p.m. ET HAMBURG, Germany (AP) -- A Moroccan student was convicted Wednesday of more than 3,000 counts of accessory to murder for helping Mohamed Atta and two other suicide pilots in the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, ending the first trial connected to the suicide hijackings. Mounir el Motassadeq, 28, was sentenced to the maximum 15 years in prison for helping the Hamburg-based al-Qaida terror cell that included Atta, the lead hijacker and two other suicide pilots. In addition to the 3,066 counts of accessory to murder, he was convicted of five counts of accessory to attempted murder and accessory to causing bodily injury. Those charges were added to allow five people wounded in the attacks, including a Naval officer at the Pentagon, to join the trial as co-plaintiffs. El Motassadeq denied the charges during his 3 1/2-month trial, and his lawyers had demanded acquittal. But Judge Albrecht Mentz sided with prosecutors' argument that a complex mosaic of evidence proved the defendant was ``a cog that kept the machinery going.'' ``The accused belonged to this group since its inception,'' Mentz said in reading the verdict. ``He knew and approved the key elements of the planned attacks.'' El Motassadeq has acknowledged knowing six other alleged members of the Hamburg cell -- Atta and two other suicide pilots, Ziad Jarrah and Marwan al-Shehhi; and organizers Ramzi Binalshibh, Said Bahaji and Zakariya Essabar. But he says he knew nothing of their plans. While suspects in the plot detained in the United States face a possible death sentence if convicted, el Motassadeq's 15-year sentence will translate into a minimum of 10 years under German law. The verdict was praised by relatives of Sept. 11 victims who joined the case as co-plaintiffs, as allowed under German law, and some of whom testified against el Motassadeq. Around 20 relatives and survivors joined the case. Joan Molinaro of New York City, whose son Carl Molinaro was a firefighter killed at the World Trade Center, said she was ``thrilled.'' ``I think it's the first small victory we've had since 9/11,'' Molinaro, who testified in the trial, told AP. ``I kind of feel like, 'OK Carl, we got one.' ... I think my son is smiling. We got one.'' Another New Yorker, Bill Doyle, who lost his son, Joseph, said he was ``pleased'' and that the prosecutors did an excellent job. ``German courts are a lot different, and the maximum over there is 15 years, so he got the maximum. In the U.S. courts, more than likely he would have gotten life,'' Doyle said. ``They wanted justice and they got justice,'' said Ulrich von Jeinsen, the lawyer who represented the Americans. ``They accept that we have another system and since he got the maximum sentence they will be satisfied.'' Presiding Judge Mentz said moving testimony by family members helped persuade the five-judge panel to deliver the maximum sentence -- which might have otherwise been difficult for the court, which also considered that el Motassadeq is the father of two young children. ``This is a success in the fight against international terrorism,'' said Interior Minister Otto Schily. ``It is a warning to all those who think they can toy with the idea of aligning themselves with terrorist networks.'' Schily called the penalty ``very harsh.'' A slight, bearded man, el Motassadeq sat between his lawyers and showed no emotion as the verdict was read. Prosecutors allege el Motassadeq used his power of attorney over al-Shehhi's bank account to pay rent, tuition and utility bills, allowing the plotters to keep up the appearance of being normal students in Germany. Prosecutors also pointed to the fact that he signed Atta's will. Witnesses testified that el Motassadeq was as radical as the rest of the group, talking of jihad -- holy war -- and his hatred of Israel and the United States. El Motassadeq himself admitted training in one of Osama bin Laden's camps in Afghanistan in 2000. But he said he was simply providing an innocent service to friends and that he took weapons training in Afghanistan because he believed all Muslims should learn to shoot. The prospect of el Motassadeq's imprisonment in Germany raised security fears even before the verdict. Terrorists might attempt hijackings or kidnappings to free him, said Bavaria's top security official, Interior Minister Guenter Beckstein. The Hamburg case, coupled with a possible Iraq war, has led some German authorities to step up surveillance of likely suspects who might be planning attacks, though there is no evidence of any specific threats for now, Beckstein told ZDF television. Germany's federal anti-crime agency said no nationwide measures were being taken, but the states were free to increase security. El Motassadeq's lawyers tried several times unsuccessfully to obtain testimony by two of his friends, Ramzi Binalshibh and Mohammed Haydar Zammar -- a lack of evidence that the lawyers say could be grounds for an appeal in case of a guilty verdict. Binalshibh, a Yemeni suspect in U.S. custody, is believed to have been the Hamburg cell's key contact with al-Qaida. Zammar, an alleged al-Qaida recruiter in Hamburg, is in prison in Syria. The court could not get the men released to testify and German authorities refused to turn over their files on the two, saying transcripts of their interrogations were provided to them on condition they only be used for intelligence purposes. El Motassadeq, the son of a middle-class family, came to Germany in 1993 to study. By 1995, he was studying electrical engineering in Hamburg, where he is believed to have first met Atta by the following year. __________________

02-19-2003, 04:32 PM	#2
Wutang Manshoon Join Date: February 3, 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 206	I'd like to know what happens after 15 years is up and he goes free? Will he still help plot another attack on America like before or will he be reformed? I don't think spending time in jail is likely to change his views on America nor Israel. I'm just concerned that once he gets out, he'll hook up with more of his buddies planning the next attack. __________________ Hula dancer lover!

02-19-2003, 04:44 PM	#4
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	1. It's not 15 yrs - it's the standard 2/3 time + parole - or 10 yrs. 2. Who knows how he'll change in prison over a decade. Maybe the same thing will occur - maybe not. Plus, he'd certainly be watched. I'm sure Al Queda, like the mob, can use operatives inside prisons. But, this is the reason I hope some horrible prison-type fate befalls him within that time period. __________________

02-19-2003, 05:04 PM	#5
Ronn_Bman Zartan Join Date: March 11, 2001 Location: North Carolina USA Age: 58 Posts: 5,177	Conviction on 3,066 counts of accessory to murder plus 5 counts of accessory to attempted murder and accessory to causing bodily injury resulting in a 10 year sentence? That's less than a day of punishment for each count he of which he was convicted. If it's the max under German law, then there isn't much that could have been done, but does anyone really think that's appropriate? Before anyone reads my mind, I'll admit killing him wouldn't bring the dead back. Then again, setting him free in 10 years won't bring them back either, and I can't see how his eventual freedom makes the world a better place. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] I guess their is some good news. Since he was arrested, detained, and prosecuted by the German government, no one can claim the US railroaded the guy. __________________ [img]\"http://home.carolina.rr.com/orthanc/pics/Spinning%20Hammer%20Sig%20Pic.gif\" alt=\" - \" />

02-19-2003, 05:25 PM	#6
Wutang Manshoon Join Date: February 3, 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 206	Djinn - Agreed but then we aren't really dealing with a petty thief in this case. As for prison accidents...I do remember about Rudolph Hess commiting suicide in prison...but was it really suicide or a prison job? I think I saw an episode on Unsolved Mysteries about Hess. They theorize that the Russians probably killed him as it was very odd for the guard to leave Hess alone. Hess I think was going to leave Spandau prison I believe and he would have divulged a lot of secrets. Secrets probably no one wanted to have exposed. BTW, Hitler write Mein Kampf in prison. That time in jail certainly didn't change his views. [ 02-19-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Wutang ] __________________ Hula dancer lover!

02-19-2003, 06:43 PM	#7
Ar-Cunin Ra Join Date: August 14, 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Age: 54 Posts: 2,326	The 15 year sentense was the maximum he could be given - and got [img]smile.gif[/img] Considering the case was solely based on circumstantial evidence it isn't too bad. __________________ Life is a laugh <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[biglaugh]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/biglaugh.gif\" /> - and DEATH is the final joke <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[hehe]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/hehe.gif\" />

02-20-2003, 01:19 AM	#10
Sir Taliesin Silver Dragon Join Date: March 4, 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN USA Age: 62 Posts: 1,641	I wouldn't worry to much about him, Timber. After he gets out, he'll be deported to Morroco. I'm sure the secret police there will love to interview him. And it won't be gentle, like the Germans did either! __________________ Sir Taliesin<br /><br />Hello... Good bye.

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