France and Germany preparing alternative for Iraqi War

Grojlach · 02-09-2003, 01:08 PM

Germany challenges US on Iraq

German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer has directly challenged the United States over the justifications for possible military action against Iraq.
"I am not convinced... I cannot go to the public and say these are the reasons because I don't believe in them," he told a European defence conference in Munich.
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld earlier appealed to America's allies to act urgently against world terrorism, as the UN chief inspectors returned to Iraq.
US officials reacted angrily to reports that Germany and France were formulating a new UN resolution, which they refused to discuss with the Americans.
An article in Der Spiegel news magazine, confirmed by German officials, said the plan envisaged deploying UN troops to Iraq to support extended weapons inspections.
It would also declare the whole of Iraq a no-fly zone, and tighten sanctions on exports to the country.
But when Mr Rumsfeld tackled his German counterpart Peter Struck about the proposal, he was told: "We're not ready to discuss it yet."
"The last thing you want to do is to lay on a major diplomatic proposal through the press," said a senior US official.

Need to act
Mr Rumsfeld told his European audience - including EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana and Nato Secretary General Lord Robertson - that Iraq had to be tackled or the cost could be "unthinkable".
He said he could not believe there were still doubts about Saddam after the presentation of intelligence data by Secretary of State Colin Powell to the UN Security Council last Wednesday.
"The threat is there to see and if the worst were to happen and if we had done nothing to stop it, not one of us here today could honestly say that it was a surprise," he said.
He said Saddam had crossed "17 lines in the sand" marked by UN resolutions and had to be stopped from continuing to defy the international community.
But Mr Fischer said he wanted the Security Council to be given more time to find a diplomatic solution.
At least 10,000 people rallied outside the conference venue in Munich to protest against any war in Iraq.

Turkey defence
Mr Rumsfeld also attacked European reluctance to provide security guarantees to Turkey, the only Nato member to border Iraq.
He had excoriated Nato allies Germany, France and Belgium for trying to stall the deployment of defence equipment to Ankara.
Those countries fear that defence planning for Turkey could undermine diplomatic efforts to avert an attack on Iraq.
Nato Secretary General Lord Robertson said at the security conference that there was "complete agreement" over the alliance's commitment to protect Turkey.
He said he was confident that a plan to send help to the country would be made soon.
Germany and the Netherlands will supply Patriot missiles to Turkey at the end of next week, according to the French news agency AFP.

Source: BBC

Grojlach · 02-09-2003, 01:17 PM

By the way, while we're on the subject of Germany anyways, here is some news that most definitely insulted many Germans:

Rumsfeld lumps Germany with Libya, Cuba on Iraq

WASHINGTON, Feb 5 (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Wednesday put Germany in the same category as Libya and Cuba as countries that had ruled out any role in a possible U.S.-led attack on Iraq or post-war reconstruction.
Rumsfeld, testifying to Congress, contrasted these three with "the non-trivial number" that he said had already pledged to join U.S.-led forces or support them by providing access, overflight or basing.
Another "pretty good group of countries" had indicated they would help rebuild Iraq after any departure of President Saddam Hussein. Saddam is widely accused of harboring banned programs to build nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the means to deliver them.
"Then there are three or four countries that have said they won't do anything," he said in reply to a question from House Armed Services Committee member Robert Andrews, a New Jersey Democrat. "I believe Libya, Cuba and Germany are ones that have indicated they wont help in any respect, I believe."
Rumsfeld did not name any other countries as having ruled out a role, not even the four blacklisted by Washington as alleged state sponsors of terrorism along with Iraq, Libya and Cuba -- Iran, Syria, Sudan and North Korea.
Last month, he triggered a storm by calling France and Germany "old Europe" in criticizing their opposition to the early use of force against Saddam.
"I think that's old Europe," he said at the time. "If you look at the entire NATO Europe today, the center of gravity is shifting to the east. And there are a lot of new members."

Source: Alertnet

For a German response to all of this, see this article.

[ 02-09-2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

02-09-2003, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grojlach:
By the way, while we're on the subject of Germany anyways, here is some news that most definitely insulted many Germans:

Rumsfeld lumps Germany with Libya, Cuba on Iraq

WASHINGTON, Feb 5 (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Wednesday put Germany in the same category as Libya and Cuba as countries that had ruled out any role in a possible U.S.-led attack on Iraq or post-war reconstruction.
Rumsfeld, testifying to Congress, contrasted these three with "the non-trivial number" that he said had already pledged to join U.S.-led forces or support them by providing access, overflight or basing.
Another "pretty good group of countries" had indicated they would help rebuild Iraq after any departure of President Saddam Hussein. Saddam is widely accused of harboring banned programs to build nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the means to deliver them.
"Then there are three or four countries that have said they won't do anything," he said in reply to a question from House Armed Services Committee member Robert Andrews, a New Jersey Democrat. "I believe Libya, Cuba and Germany are ones that have indicated they wont help in any respect, I believe."
Rumsfeld did not name any other countries as having ruled out a role, not even the four blacklisted by Washington as alleged state sponsors of terrorism along with Iraq, Libya and Cuba -- Iran, Syria, Sudan and North Korea.
Last month, he triggered a storm by calling France and Germany "old Europe" in criticizing their opposition to the early use of force against Saddam.
"I think that's old Europe," he said at the time. "If you look at the entire NATO Europe today, the center of gravity is shifting to the east. And there are a lot of new members."

Source: Alertnet

For a German response to all of this, see this article.

Why would this anger Germans? All he did was list some nations that had a particular view. If they don't like the company they keep, that isn't Rumsfelds problem. Sheesh, you would think that they were ashamed to have the same views as Libya and Cuba...fellow socialist states...with apparently the same professed stand on the Iraqi War.

The Hierophant · 02-09-2003, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MagiK:
Why would this anger Germans? All he did was list some nations that had a particular view. If they don't like the company they keep, that isn't Rumsfelds problem. Sheesh, you would think that they were ashamed to have the same views as Libya and Cuba...fellow socialist states...with apparently the same professed stand on the Iraqi War.

It would appear that they are more defensive, rather than angry. Libya and Cuba have long been viewed by Western eyes as undesirable renegade states. To be associated with them is to share their pseudo-renegade status in the eyes of some. This sort of thing can really hurt a nation financially, defensively, economically, whatever.
This whole thing is just turning into a schoolyard spat. Temper tantrums and name-calling have been rife. It's only a matter of time before separate 'gangs' get set in stone and nations really start to get hurt economically. A downright shame really. But hey, nothing lasts forever. This is just a global struggle for the new generation.

Sir Taliesin · 02-09-2003, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grojlach:
An article in Der Spiegel news magazine, confirmed by German officials, said the plan envisaged deploying UN troops to Iraq to support extended weapons inspections.

I'm sorry, but I think of Scebrenica, Bosnia, when I think of UN Peacekeepers. Wonder what all those Muslim men and boys that were slaughtered there, think about UN Peacekeepers. After all, had the Peacekeepers decided to interfere, they might still be alive!

johnny · 02-10-2003, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin:

Quote:
Originally posted by Grojlach:
An article in Der Spiegel news magazine, confirmed by German officials, said the plan envisaged deploying UN troops to Iraq to support extended weapons inspections.

I'm sorry, but I think of Scebrenica, Bosnia, when I think of UN Peacekeepers. Wonder what all those Muslim men and boys that were slaughtered there, think about UN Peacekeepers. After all, had the Peacekeepers decided to interfere, they might still be alive![/QUOTE]That's just another example of UN inefficiency. All they had to do was say: fire, and the Serbs would have run off with their tails behind their legs. Now you have several countries throwing mud at eachother, cause none of them is willing to take the blame for this.

Shaide · 02-10-2003, 06:14 AM

Why?, why Rusfeld said that Germany is like Lybia or Irak?
'cause they dont want the war, like all world. what is trying to mean Rusfeld?
He try to mean that the world wouldn't be imparcial, neutral?... or you are with iraq or you are with usa. The most of citizen in this world see this prevention war like a war for oil (I know, I said it before), but this is a stupid thing... prevention war, then the nations could attack their neighour saying that they are dangerous, it's stupid. Since 11-sept, usa attacked Afganistan, now Iraq, what will be the next?, they say that it's a war against terrorist, but what's wrong with North Corea?, what's wrong with Lars Far in Colombia?, what's wrong with Israel? (I mean the juddish not the Palestian), Israel is the most important problem in the Middle Eastern. I think that It's a war against the terrorist else against the nations that Usa dont like, or dont buy war guns to USA. North Corea buy war guns to usa, and Iraq buy war guns to Rusia moreover the oil that they have.

Shaide

Thoran · 02-10-2003, 11:48 AM

I for one would love to see Germany and France put forward a viable alternative that averted war and disarmed Iraq. If that means UN forces driving around with Inspectors, insuring that the inspectors are being allowed full access to whereever they want to got than I'm all for it.

Of course I'd leave our troops in place, so that the first time the Iraqis try to throw their weight around (by confronting UN forces militarily) we have a big stick to whack em with. Nothing like a couple flights of Apache's and A-10's loitering over your head to make you rethink the whole "confrontation" thing.

Ar-Cunin · 02-11-2003, 11:24 AM

According to a German Spokesman at the UN only 4 of 15 members of the Security Council is against the Franko-German-Russian initiative. They are USA, GB, Spain and Bulgaria.

(Germany holds the chairmanship of the SC)

Djinn Raffo · 02-11-2003, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MagiK:
Why would this anger Germans? All he did was list some nations that had a particular view. If they don't like the company they keep, that isn't Rumsfelds problem. Sheesh, you would think that they were ashamed to have the same views as Libya and Cuba...fellow socialist states...with apparently the same professed stand on the Iraqi War.

It probably angered them for the same reasons i remember you were angered when someone lumped in Iraq, China, Iran and the USA as all being fellow proponents of the Death Penalty. You would think you would have been ashamed to have the same views as Iran and Iraq... fellow Capital Punishment advocates.. although i'm sure those countries don't share the same view on an Iraqi war.

The Heirophant stated some excellent reasons as to the germans displeasure.

And it would be great if an effective alternative to war was drafted by the Germans.

[ 02-11-2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

02-09-2003, 01:08 PM	#1
Grojlach Zartan Join Date: May 2, 2001 Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum Age: 44 Posts: 5,281	Germany challenges US on Iraq German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer has directly challenged the United States over the justifications for possible military action against Iraq. "I am not convinced... I cannot go to the public and say these are the reasons because I don't believe in them," he told a European defence conference in Munich. US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld earlier appealed to America's allies to act urgently against world terrorism, as the UN chief inspectors returned to Iraq. US officials reacted angrily to reports that Germany and France were formulating a new UN resolution, which they refused to discuss with the Americans. An article in Der Spiegel news magazine, confirmed by German officials, said the plan envisaged deploying UN troops to Iraq to support extended weapons inspections. It would also declare the whole of Iraq a no-fly zone, and tighten sanctions on exports to the country. But when Mr Rumsfeld tackled his German counterpart Peter Struck about the proposal, he was told: "We're not ready to discuss it yet." "The last thing you want to do is to lay on a major diplomatic proposal through the press," said a senior US official. Need to act Mr Rumsfeld told his European audience - including EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana and Nato Secretary General Lord Robertson - that Iraq had to be tackled or the cost could be "unthinkable". He said he could not believe there were still doubts about Saddam after the presentation of intelligence data by Secretary of State Colin Powell to the UN Security Council last Wednesday. "The threat is there to see and if the worst were to happen and if we had done nothing to stop it, not one of us here today could honestly say that it was a surprise," he said. He said Saddam had crossed "17 lines in the sand" marked by UN resolutions and had to be stopped from continuing to defy the international community. But Mr Fischer said he wanted the Security Council to be given more time to find a diplomatic solution. At least 10,000 people rallied outside the conference venue in Munich to protest against any war in Iraq. Turkey defence Mr Rumsfeld also attacked European reluctance to provide security guarantees to Turkey, the only Nato member to border Iraq. He had excoriated Nato allies Germany, France and Belgium for trying to stall the deployment of defence equipment to Ankara. Those countries fear that defence planning for Turkey could undermine diplomatic efforts to avert an attack on Iraq. Nato Secretary General Lord Robertson said at the security conference that there was "complete agreement" over the alliance's commitment to protect Turkey. He said he was confident that a plan to send help to the country would be made soon. Germany and the Netherlands will supply Patriot missiles to Turkey at the end of next week, according to the French news agency AFP. Source: BBC __________________ [url]\"http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/Grobbel/\" target=\"_blank\"> [img]\"http://www.denness.net/rpi/username/Grobbel\" alt=\" - \" /></a>

02-09-2003, 01:17 PM	#2
Grojlach Zartan Join Date: May 2, 2001 Location: Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum Age: 44 Posts: 5,281	By the way, while we're on the subject of Germany anyways, here is some news that most definitely insulted many Germans: Rumsfeld lumps Germany with Libya, Cuba on Iraq WASHINGTON, Feb 5 (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Wednesday put Germany in the same category as Libya and Cuba as countries that had ruled out any role in a possible U.S.-led attack on Iraq or post-war reconstruction. Rumsfeld, testifying to Congress, contrasted these three with "the non-trivial number" that he said had already pledged to join U.S.-led forces or support them by providing access, overflight or basing. Another "pretty good group of countries" had indicated they would help rebuild Iraq after any departure of President Saddam Hussein. Saddam is widely accused of harboring banned programs to build nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the means to deliver them. "Then there are three or four countries that have said they won't do anything," he said in reply to a question from House Armed Services Committee member Robert Andrews, a New Jersey Democrat. "I believe Libya, Cuba and Germany are ones that have indicated they wont help in any respect, I believe." Rumsfeld did not name any other countries as having ruled out a role, not even the four blacklisted by Washington as alleged state sponsors of terrorism along with Iraq, Libya and Cuba -- Iran, Syria, Sudan and North Korea. Last month, he triggered a storm by calling France and Germany "old Europe" in criticizing their opposition to the early use of force against Saddam. "I think that's old Europe," he said at the time. "If you look at the entire NATO Europe today, the center of gravity is shifting to the east. And there are a lot of new members." Source: Alertnet For a German response to all of this, see this article. [ 02-09-2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ] __________________ [url]\"http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/Grobbel/\" target=\"_blank\"> [img]\"http://www.denness.net/rpi/username/Grobbel\" alt=\" - \" /></a>

02-11-2003, 11:24 AM	#9
Ar-Cunin Ra Join Date: August 14, 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Age: 53 Posts: 2,326	According to a German Spokesman at the UN only 4 of 15 members of the Security Council is against the Franko-German-Russian initiative. They are USA, GB, Spain and Bulgaria. (Germany holds the chairmanship of the SC) __________________ Life is a laugh <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[biglaugh]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/biglaugh.gif\" /> - and DEATH is the final joke <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[hehe]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/hehe.gif\" />

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02-10-2003, 06:14 AM	#7
Shaide Dungeon Master Join Date: November 5, 2002 Location: Cordoba(andalusia)(spain)(europe)(the world)(the system solar)(the universe) Age: 45 Posts: 91	Why?, why Rusfeld said that Germany is like Lybia or Irak? 'cause they dont want the war, like all world. what is trying to mean Rusfeld? He try to mean that the world wouldn't be imparcial, neutral?... or you are with iraq or you are with usa. The most of citizen in this world see this prevention war like a war for oil (I know, I said it before), but this is a stupid thing... prevention war, then the nations could attack their neighour saying that they are dangerous, it's stupid. Since 11-sept, usa attacked Afganistan, now Iraq, what will be the next?, they say that it's a war against terrorist, but what's wrong with North Corea?, what's wrong with Lars Far in Colombia?, what's wrong with Israel? (I mean the juddish not the Palestian), Israel is the most important problem in the Middle Eastern. I think that It's a war against the terrorist else against the nations that Usa dont like, or dont buy war guns to USA. North Corea buy war guns to usa, and Iraq buy war guns to Rusia moreover the oil that they have. Shaide

02-10-2003, 11:48 AM	#8
Thoran Galvatron Join Date: January 10, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Age: 57 Posts: 2,109	I for one would love to see Germany and France put forward a viable alternative that averted war and disarmed Iraq. If that means UN forces driving around with Inspectors, insuring that the inspectors are being allowed full access to whereever they want to got than I'm all for it. Of course I'd leave our troops in place, so that the first time the Iraqis try to throw their weight around (by confronting UN forces militarily) we have a big stick to whack em with. Nothing like a couple flights of Apache's and A-10's loitering over your head to make you rethink the whole "confrontation" thing.

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