Divided loyalties

[Skunk]

Whilst the bulk of the British population approve of the bombing campaign in principle, the British muslim population does not. Two weeks ago, a newspaper in the UK carried out a survey - here are the results:

Sunday Times surevy. Total number interviewed - 1170

1. Do you believe the US is right to bomb Afghanistan?
Yes - 15% (182 respondents)
No - 83% (996 respondents)
Don't know - 2% (22 respondents)

2. Should the US stop its bombing of Afghanistan?
Yes - 96% (1124)
No - 4% (41)
Don't know - 0% (5)

3. Do you believe the US should suspend its bombing of Afghanistan during Ramadan?
Yes - 94% (1100)
No - 5 % (63)
Don't know - 1% (7)

4. Do you believe the United States' efforts to capture or kill Osama bin Laden are justified?
Yes - 36% (418)
No - 61% (711)
Don't know - 3% (41)

5. Do you believe Tony Blair, the prime minister, is right to support the United States in its war against the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden?
Yes - 24% (284)
No - 73% (850)
Don't know - 3% (36)

6. Do you believe Osama bin Laden is justified in any way to mount his war against the United States?
Yes - 40% (468)
No - 56% (654)
Don't know - 4%(48)

7. Do you believe there was any justification for the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon on September 11?
Yes - 11% (125)
No - 88% (1032)
Don't know - 1% (13)

8. Do you believe that the bombing campaign in Afghanistan will lead to worsening relations in Britain between Muslims and non-Muslims?
Yes - 86% (1009)
No - 12% (144)
Don't know - 2% (17)

9. Do you believe Britons who decide to fight with the Taliban are justified in doing so?
Yes - 40% (463)
No - 57% (664)
Don't know - 3% (43)

10. Which is more important to you: a) to be Muslim b) to be British?
Muslim - 68% (794)
British - 14% (166)
Don't know or the same - 18% (210)

This depth of feeling against the war on the muslim side (questions 9 and 10 being especially noteworthy) and the reverse feeling on the part of the rest of the population has led to strong tensions amongst the population.

"...a gang of masked Muslim youths attacked St Philip's parish church in the Girlington area of Bradford. They let off fireworks inside, burnt the altar cloth and left prayer books strewn across the floor. They also threw stones at the vicar and chased him as he tried to escape in his car.

On the same night in Leeds, a gang of Muslim youths vandalised vehicles and threatened white residents. They chanted "Get out of Afghanistan" and ordered drivers to say "Osama Bin Laden rules". Some who refused had their cars pelted with bricks and fireworks thrown through their windows.

In Manchester, 50 asylum-seekers, many of them Afghans, had to be evacuated last week after a gang of armed men rammed their hostel in a stolen car.

The Forum Against Islamophobia & Racism (Fair) also has a list of offences. It describes one at the Islamic Centre of the South West in Exeter in which racists singled out the Muslim revulsion of pork: "Ten pigs' heads were deliberately dumped in the centre's car park." "


The question now is, what happens to race relations in the post-Taliban world?...

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Skunk:
"...a gang of masked Muslim youths attacked St Philip's parish church in the Girlington area of Bradford. They let off fireworks inside, burnt the altar cloth and left prayer books strewn across the floor. They also threw stones at the vicar and chased him as he tried to escape in his car.

On the same night in Leeds, a gang of Muslim youths vandalised vehicles and threatened white residents. They chanted "Get out of Afghanistan" and ordered drivers to say "Osama Bin Laden rules". Some who refused had their cars pelted with bricks and fireworks thrown through their windows.

In Manchester, 50 asylum-seekers, many of them Afghans, had to be evacuated last week after a gang of armed men rammed their hostel in a stolen car.

The Forum Against Islamophobia & Racism (Fair) also has a list of offences. It describes one at the Islamic Centre of the South West in Exeter in which racists singled out the Muslim revulsion of pork: "Ten pigs' heads were deliberately dumped in the centre's car park."

The question now is, what happens to race relations in the post-Taliban world?...

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All of that is unacceptable! The people who did these things were just as wrong and misguided as those American's who attacked Muslims in the first few days after September 11th. It's wrong for the non-Muslim population to blame the Muslim population for what happened and the other way around. Strange that they feel that strongly about Osama, and yet the nations in the Middle East are in favor of both his and the Taliban's removal.

The Taliban are a radical religious/political group. The Afghan people are the ones with the right to Afghanistan. It still boggles my mind that people so hate the West that they would favor the Taliban and Osama over the Afghan people. No matter what "injustices" the West has committed, why should their own people be so unimportant?

What happens post-Taliban? The UN tries to bring Afghanistan back together, and feeds the hungry. That's the first of many steps, but some people will never be changed. There are those who will hate regardless of the situation, the goal is to eliminate their power and ability to do harm.

Skunk, do you have any other polls on coalition nations? You don't have to post them if you don't want, but you could email me if you don't mind.

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


All of that is unacceptable! The people who did these things were just as wrong and misguided as those American's who attacked Muslims in the first few days after September 11th. It's wrong for the non-Muslim population to blame the Muslim population for what happened and the other way around. Strange that they feel that strongly about Osama, and yet the nations in the Middle East are in favor of both his and the Taliban's removal.

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Totally agree, couldn't have put it better. Except for the Taliban removal thing. Many regimes don't actually think that the Talibans should be removed... they might tell us that's what they believe because they know that's what we want to hear!

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:

What happens post-Taliban? The UN tries to bring Afghanistan back together, and feeds the hungry. That's the first of many steps, but some people will never be changed. There are those who will hate regardless of the situation, the goal is to eliminate their power and ability to do harm.

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Here, we break ranks (as usual). The UN is a totally inificient political body who couldn't do a thing right if its life depended on it. Do us all the favor and leave the UN out of this mess... in fact, scrap the UN and put in place a body that can actually make sense!

[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[Skunk]

Yes, but the most important islamic regimes *do* want the Taliban removed because their actions are demonising Islam. Even Iran, (no friend of the US) had this to say:

quote:

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Full story: Tehran Times

Iran on Tuesday night felicitated Afghans on their victory against the hardline Taleban, hailing it "owed to the great movement of the alien-fighting people and the resistance of military commanders, including martyr Ahmad Shah Masood" who was assassinated in September.

"The Islamic Republic of Iran...hopes the victory will serve to put an end to armed disputes in Afghanistan and pave the way for the formation of the future Afghan government which is based on the people's demands, participated by all ethnic groups and supervised by the United Nations," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

"The Islamic Republic of Iran hopes that the United Front forces will exert their best efforts for the establishment of peace and stability, respect of the citizens' rights, practice of the Islamic leniency, announcement of a general amnesty and observation of all international laws before the transitional Afghan government is formed," it added.

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[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Skunk ]

[Ronn_Bman]

And keep in mind, the Taliban is not considered the legitimate regime of Afghanistan. Only 3 nations recognized the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan. World and especially local nations do want them removed. Iran certainly hasn't been intimidated by the US in the past and even they agree. The world doesn't want the Taliban out just because of US desires. This whole situation isn't as simple as the US making everyone do everything we want.

The UN may be ineffective, but it's the best we have, and so we should use it. Scraping it and starting over is a bit extreme.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Skunk:


Seems to be a reasonable show of support coming from france there.

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You are a better resource than Google.com [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Ryanamur]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


The UN may be ineffective, but it's the best we have, and so we should use it. Scraping it and starting over is a bit extreme.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

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To work effectivelly, the UN needs at least 5 thing:
1- To scrap the Security Council
2- To make it a majority vote and not a unanimous vote in the General Assembly (in other words, when a motion is put forth, there shouldn't be amendments to it to satisfy all parties and make the motion worthless)
3- For every Nation to pay their full dues
4- For every Nation to recongnize UN decisions as a Supreme decision over a Nation own sovereignty
5- For Nations to vote with the best interest of the world and not of any particular nation in mind!

How many of those you think a Nation's would accept? None. So, we get rid of this totally inefficient body that wastes our tax money and we do everything the hard way until the world is ready to accept the points listed above.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryanamur:


To work effectivelly, the UN needs at least 5 thing:
1- To scrap the Security Council
2- To make it a majority vote and not a unanimous vote in the General Assembly (in other words, when a motion is put forth, there shouldn't be amendments to it to satisfy all parties and make the motion worthless)
3- For every Nation to pay their full dues
4- For every Nation to recongnize UN decisions as a Supreme decision over a Nation own sovereignty
5- For Nations to vote with the best interest of the world and not of any particular nation in mind!

How many of those you think a Nation's would accept? None. So, we get rid of this totally inefficient body that wastes our tax money and we do everything the hard way until the world is ready to accept the points listed above.

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: Ryanamur ]

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Doing nothing is worsen than not trying at all. It isn't all or nothing.

[Skunk]

Oops. Acidently deleted my post while editing.
Here's the link to the French opinions once more:

ExpressionPublique - French attitudes to the conflict

Forgive me if I don't retype the translation

[Skunk]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ryanamur:


So, we get rid of this totally inefficient body [The UN] that wastes our tax money and we do everything the hard way until the world is ready to accept the points listed above.

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And while were at it, let's get rid of the Police because they don't have a 100% crime detection rate. Oh yes, and the courts too because they get it wrong sometimes and that compensation money is such a drag on the public purse...

As the cliche goes. It may not be perfect, but it's the best we have...