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Old 02-04-2004, 08:32 PM   #1
Yorick
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Some facts about music and copyright:

When you purchase a CD you own one physical copy of the material. You do not own the contents of the CD. The contents remain the property of the copyright owner - who licensed the intellectual property (the songs) to the owner of the recording.

This is an important concept to understand. The concept of copyrighting intellectual property is what allowed books to be published, symphonies written and movies made. Understand the difference between the CONCRETE - which is the actual CD, and the ABSTRACT - which is the content.

As such it is not and has never been legal to tape a record, tape songs off the radio, photocopy sheet music, copy CDs, share mp3s or make your own compilation CDs out of CDs you have bought.

If you had the right to make a compilation CD, you would also have the right to sell it, as you would own it. Can you see this? If you could do that, anyone could take anyone elses work and make money, while the creator of it saw nothing.

Taping songs, copying CDs, photocopying sheet music, and sharing mp3s all deprive artists of income. Imagine if a whole school handed out 500 photocopies of a song you wrote. That's 500 sheet music sales you missed out on, while those with the music may even make money off you - by say playing your song a a gig.

If you own a business you do not have the right to play a CD you bought to generate business. Clothing stores that play music, pay a license to do so. They fill out forms detailing what songs they've played, and a the money from the licenses get's distributed back to the songwriters. Radio stations, TV stations pay this fee as well. APRA in Australia is nonprofit, and distributes all it receives (after costs). Thus the amount of money you see for your song playing on radio varies from year to year.

You do not have the right to use a song or recording as an advertisement for your business without obtaining a license for the song, or buying the song.

Buying a song is very different to buying a CD that that song is on. Very different.

If you owned the song you could advertise with it, copy it, sell it, share it. Whatever you like.

So please, in forming an opinion about how "right and wrong" filesharing is, keep in mind the difference between CONCRETE property and INTELLECTUAL property, and understand you only ever owned the single physical copy, nothing else. The laws protecting copyright have been in existence for 200 years at least. What is new is the magnitude of the current piracy, and that this new generation of thieves seem to somehow think it is their right to own music that they didn't create.

Many thanks for reading.

Hugh
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:44 PM   #2
Djinn Raffo
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What about when a band performs a cover song?
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Old 02-04-2004, 10:55 PM   #3
Larry_OHF
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Quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
What about when a band performs a cover song?
Headline news five years from now...
4 year old arrested (yes, arrested) by the RIAA for singing "Rubber ducky, you're the one" in the bathtub.

The way I see it, laws are temporary, and based on the times. We see a world today that is realizing that in order to give gay groups total equal rights, they must be allowed to marry legally...so the laws are about to change to accomodate this new train of thought.

This is February, and so it is Black History Month. Years ago...whites made the blacks sit in the back of the bus until one day a young woman refused to give up her front seat,,,was taken to jail, and that spurred a huge change for the lives of everybody when we realized we were wrong.

I predict that the RIAA will eventually lose tihs battle, and not be able to force this rule of copywrite infringement. There are just too many people to arrest to bring justice to their rules, and a new approach will have to be determined.
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:15 AM   #4
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
What about when a band performs a cover song?
They pay a compulsory license to the copyright owner of the SONG. A percentage of the albums royalties, per minute of music. Something like 8c per minute. The band, or whover pays for the recording owns the recording.

If the song has never been commercially released they need a negotiated license. You can get in hot water without these.

If you wanted to put the recording in a film, you'd need permission from the recording owner AND the song copyright owner
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:23 AM   #5
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry_OHF:

I predict that the RIAA will eventually lose tihs battle, and not be able to force this rule of copywrite infringement. There are just too many people to arrest to bring justice to their rules, and a new approach will have to be determined.
No. Copyright is too entrenched. Movies would cease, books would not be written. It would be chaos. What WILL happen, if it's not abated, is that internet privacy will be a thing of the past. There will be daily checks on your computer for pirated software, games, films (thanks to DVD rippers) and songs, as well as for illegal pornography and in Germany, proNazi publications.

That is the way the laws will change. You can't attempt to erase progress. Copyright is fundamental to commercialised and saleable art. Landmark idea. Removing it would be like deinventing the wheel because people steal cars.

The internets days of self regulation are numbered. Just as human societies needed laws in the face of choas and exploitation, so will there be internet laws and internet police.

Mp3 thiefs will be largely to blame for the loss of privacy.

[ 02-05-2004, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:25 AM   #6
Djinn Raffo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
What about when a band performs a cover song?
They pay a compulsory license to the copyright owner of the SONG. A percentage of the albums royalties, per minute of music. Something like 8c per minute. The band, or whover pays for the recording owns the recording.

If the song has never been commercially released they need a negotiated license. You can get in hot water without these.

If you wanted to put the recording in a film, you'd need permission from the recording owner AND the song copyright owner
[/QUOTE]When they play the cover song in a bar?
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:38 AM   #7
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
What about when a band performs a cover song?
Headline news five years from now...
4 year old arrested (yes, arrested) by the RIAA for singing "Rubber ducky, you're the one" in the bathtub.
[/QUOTE]You're missing the point. You can sing anything you like. Were the kids parents to record the kid and sell the CD they would be infringing copyright.

Apparently U2 were sued for Bono singing a few lines of "Where are the clowns, send in the clowns" on a CD release of a live concert.

If true, him singing it wasn't the issue, it was that they sold it on a CD without going through the proper channels.

When I was performing regularly in Australia, my band would fill out song lists of the songs we performed that went to APRA. We received tiny percentages of the clubs APRA fees. If we did originals we saw a bit of money. However, if we were doing someone elses songs, the writer would get some money. Not much, but enough that if a guy wrote a killer hit song, and every band played it for ten years in every club, he's see a justifiable return on creating something with that much demand.

The system relies on honesty, and as you are all aware, people being sued for minor copyright infringement doesn;t happen. But it offers protection and assurances that if someone makes a million of your work, you will be compensated. It means you can't be ripped off.

These kids stealing songs are ripping us off. Collectively ruining the entire industry by draining record companies of the cash they need to record new music.

Say a company records 50 albums in a year. Only one of those may sell. That one will fund the 50 for the next year. The sellers subsidise those that don't sell. I've had records made, subsidised by big selling records. Had the mp3 theft occured 10 years earlier than it did, I would not have a career.
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:41 AM   #8
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Djinn Raffo:
When they play the cover song in a bar?
It's theoretically covered by the bars license fees. As per my post above. Depends on the venue or the artist. Some venues I played at would get our song lists from us for the annual lists they would put in to APRA.

A festival I used to play at - Black Stump - would ALWAYS get our set lists, for they paid a fee and handed in a list of songs performed, so the fee was distributed accordingly.

[ 02-05-2004, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:47 AM   #9
Chewbacca
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No amount of prosecution, lawsuits, and rule quoting will help a flawed and wasteful business model that is also out of line with consumer demand and behind in technology.

I think it would serve artist's more if they would tackle the main cause of the problem and demand that their representatives and producers change the way they do things, rather than make futile and disenchanting attacks on the symptoms.

Of course not every artist attacks and discredits filesharing so dont be fooled into thinking so people.
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:52 AM   #10
Yorick
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The cover song - bar license fee , is a fair requirement.

People go to a bar that has a band to be entertained. The band may have a name as a "covers band" playing songs written by all one artist. The bar and in turn the band are making money from anothers intellectual property. It's only fair a percentage goes back to the owner of those songs.

Especially when you have the phenomena of the Aussie band "Cold Chisel" that broke up years ago. I recall more than once, a covers band playing all their songs was selling out night after night, while down the road, the writer/guitarist of much of that music was performing to empty bars.

Under the APRA system, he was still being paid a little for the bands use of his material.
However, does it compensate for the fact that without the covers band playing, he may have had a bigger crowd?

People are wierd. That was a very bizzare series of events. A prime example of zero respect for the artist and creator of the work loved.
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