What do you think?

LordKathen · 12-04-2003, 03:29 PM

Justified? Called for? Homicide?

Questions raised on use of force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Jeanne Houck
Post staff reporter

Three separate investigations have been launched into Cincinnati's first death in police custody since Roger Owensby Jr. was suffocated in 2000 -- raising questions about use of force that provide a troubling backdrop to today's swearing-in ceremonies for the new City Council.
Three groups -- the Citizen Complaint Authority established by the landmark 2002 collaborative agreement, the police department's Homicide Unit and the department's Internal Investigations Section -- will independently study the early Sunday morning death of Nathaniel Jones, 41, no address available, after a struggle with police outside a White Castle restaurant in Avondale.

Police records show a woman called 911 at 5:44 a.m. to ask that paramedics be dispatched to the White Castle at 64 W. Mitchell Ave. -- near Vine Street -- because of a man passed out in the grass outside.

Paramedics who responded asked at 5:54 a.m. for police to be dispatched to the scene, saying the man was very much awake and "becoming a nuisance to the people here.''

Police Officers James Pike, who joined the department in 1996, and Baron Osterman, who joined the department in 2002, were the first to arrive for what was dispatched as a "disorderly subject'' run.

At 6 a.m. they asked for a Mental Health Response Team (MHRT) officer and a minute later, someone with a Taser.

But, police say, the brawl with Jones was already on and although MHRT Officer Michael Schulte arrived just minutes later, it was already too late to avoid a physical confrontation. Schulte, who shot a burglary suspect to death in February after the man grabbed the officer's nightstick and started beating the officer with it, was cleared by the Citizen Complaint Authority in its first major investigation.

Per standard practice, six police officers involved in Jones' arrest have been placed on paid administrative leave as the investigations continue.

Police brass are defending the officers' actions.

Lt. Col. Richard Janke said at a press conference Sunday the officers were forced to subdue Jones with batons and a chemical irritant because Jones -- whom police estimated at 5-foot 6 and nearly 400 pounds -- was slugging officers instead of obeying orders to put his hands behind his back to be handcuffed and arrested for disorderly conduct. Jones was pronounced dead shortly after being taken to University Hospital.

Much of the encounter between police and Jones was caught on video surveillance cameras mounted in responding officers' cruisers.

Two of the officers involved, Pike and Osterman, were treated for cuts and abrasions to the head and neck. Police would not name the other four officers placed on leave.

Meanwhile, Janke said it will be the responsibility of the Hamilton County Coroner's Office to determine what caused Jones' death and that police cannot say when that answer will come. But the coroner generally takes one to three days in these kinds of cases, Janke said.

Police would not say if Jones appeared to be under the influence of drugs, but Janke said the department expects the coroner to perform toxicology reports on Jones.

Janke expressed sympathy for Jones' loved ones, saying, "The loss of human life is always heartbreaking.''

But, Janke said, "It was a violent assault by a very large man,'' and, given the circumstances, the officers' actions' were "consistent with our training procedures.''

Cincinnati City Council Member David Pepper, who today will become chairman of council's Law Committee when the new council is sworn in at City Hall, said late Sunday that he will push for a "quick, transparent disclosure" of the critical facts in the case.

"The key is to get as much of what we know out as quickly as possible,'' Pepper said. "I'd expect we'd see some of that in the next day or so, while some things obviously will take a bit longer.

"The problem we've had in some of these cases in the past is that people didn't have faith in the process of getting answers, partly because it seemed to take too long. I hope we've learned from that.

"We need a transparent, fair and balanced process that gets to the bottom of what happened, and the quicker we get it, the better it will be for everyone.''

The Rev. Damon Lynch III called Jones' death tragic and said he would like to learn more about what precipitated the struggle between officers and Jones.

He will be watching the investigation, he said.

"I'm somewhat disheartened by some of the comments from some of the top brass in the police department that everything's been done by the book,'' he said.

Their comments, he said, "make an investigation seem perfunctory.''

Police Chief Thomas Streicher Jr. was out of town and could not be reached for comment.

Roger Webster, president of the local Fraternal Order of Police, was livid about how the officers involved in Jones' arrest were treated.

After the arrest, Webster said, police administration rejected his proposal that the officers be given 48 hours to collect their thoughts with their loved ones. They insisted, instead, that they officers endure some eight hours of investigative procedures with limited contact with the outside, Webster said.

The officers were sequestered immediately after the incident, read their rights and allowed to call only attorneys and clergy, Webster said.

"What criminal acts are you investigating?'' Webster said. "What did they do wrong?

"They were in a fight for their lives.

"And you wonder why they don't want to work. They don't want to work because they're treated worse than the criminals they arrest.''

Hamilton County court records show Jones was charged in 1998 with possession of cocaine, and he was sent to a community diagnostic and treatment center for examination and later evaluated for possible drug problems.

Jones, then living in Loveland, subsequently pleaded guilty to possession of cocaine and in April 1998 was ordered to undergo three years of intensive supervision in the in-patient program at the Talbert House, which offers mental-health, community-corrections and substance-abuse services on Victory Parkway in Cincinnati.

Janke said at the press conference Sunday that officers summoned paramedics back to the scene at White Castle after subduing and handcuffing Jones.

Janke said Jones had a pulse but was showing signs of distress. Janke said he could not elaborate on that.

Janke said not every officer on the scene struck Jones, but that Jones was struck only on the torso, not his head.

No one used a Taser on him, Janke said.

During the press conference, police showed a videotape of a portion of the fight captured by a camera in one of the cruisers.

In it, Jones is seen swinging at one officer, and the pair briefly falling out of the view of the camera as a second officer races to the other's aid.

The trio tumble back into the scene, and Jones manages to rise from the ground a few times -- once catching hold of a nightstick -- while Pike and Osterman strike him with their batons, screaming for him to get down and to put his hands behind his back.

Other officers run up singly or in pairs and some of them also struggle with Jones.

Janke said police intend to study videos from every surveillance camera that recorded Jones' arrest, and that they plan to interview fire department witnesses.

Source: http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/01/cmain120103.html

LordKathen · 12-05-2003, 03:42 PM

Anyone?

Maelakin · 12-05-2003, 03:46 PM

I would respond, but I don’t feel enough information has been released as of yet to form an opinion. I’m not one for too much idle speculation.

12-05-2003, 03:58 PM

Later on, I believe I heard on TV news that the coroner's office ruled it a homicide but that doesn't mean the officers were guilty of police brutality or something like that. Sorry I don't have the source but pretty sure of what I listened to on the news.

I saw some of that video too. The one on most of the news I guess and it looked to me that the Jones started the fight. Maybe they went too far is really the question IMO. Should they have used the Taser? I don't know but if that is a policy then maybe they should have instead of resorting to fisticuffs.

All in all, I really don't what to judge because I am not a police officer. They do have it tough YET IMO every police officer should go thru required periodical sensitivity training letting them know what to do and not to do in any situation. Also, if a police officer has a history to be involved in deaths when trying to apprehend a suspect, then he/she needs to be re-evaluated to determine if they should be transfered to a less contact oriented position.

pritchke · 12-05-2003, 03:59 PM

He was 400lbs so probably died of a heart attack due to the sudden stress, plus mixed with the boos didn't help. But without a coronary report it would be tough to say.

[ 12-05-2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Rokenn · 12-05-2003, 04:18 PM

From the information provide it looks like the police acted responsibly. Hopefully they will get a fairshake on this.

12-04-2003, 03:29 PM	#1
LordKathen Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: September 15, 2002 Location: Kennewick, WA Age: 53 Posts: 3,166	Justified? Called for? Homicide? Questions raised on use of force -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Jeanne Houck Post staff reporter Three separate investigations have been launched into Cincinnati's first death in police custody since Roger Owensby Jr. was suffocated in 2000 -- raising questions about use of force that provide a troubling backdrop to today's swearing-in ceremonies for the new City Council. Three groups -- the Citizen Complaint Authority established by the landmark 2002 collaborative agreement, the police department's Homicide Unit and the department's Internal Investigations Section -- will independently study the early Sunday morning death of Nathaniel Jones, 41, no address available, after a struggle with police outside a White Castle restaurant in Avondale. Police records show a woman called 911 at 5:44 a.m. to ask that paramedics be dispatched to the White Castle at 64 W. Mitchell Ave. -- near Vine Street -- because of a man passed out in the grass outside. Paramedics who responded asked at 5:54 a.m. for police to be dispatched to the scene, saying the man was very much awake and "becoming a nuisance to the people here.'' Police Officers James Pike, who joined the department in 1996, and Baron Osterman, who joined the department in 2002, were the first to arrive for what was dispatched as a "disorderly subject'' run. At 6 a.m. they asked for a Mental Health Response Team (MHRT) officer and a minute later, someone with a Taser. But, police say, the brawl with Jones was already on and although MHRT Officer Michael Schulte arrived just minutes later, it was already too late to avoid a physical confrontation. Schulte, who shot a burglary suspect to death in February after the man grabbed the officer's nightstick and started beating the officer with it, was cleared by the Citizen Complaint Authority in its first major investigation. Per standard practice, six police officers involved in Jones' arrest have been placed on paid administrative leave as the investigations continue. Police brass are defending the officers' actions. Lt. Col. Richard Janke said at a press conference Sunday the officers were forced to subdue Jones with batons and a chemical irritant because Jones -- whom police estimated at 5-foot 6 and nearly 400 pounds -- was slugging officers instead of obeying orders to put his hands behind his back to be handcuffed and arrested for disorderly conduct. Jones was pronounced dead shortly after being taken to University Hospital. Much of the encounter between police and Jones was caught on video surveillance cameras mounted in responding officers' cruisers. Two of the officers involved, Pike and Osterman, were treated for cuts and abrasions to the head and neck. Police would not name the other four officers placed on leave. Meanwhile, Janke said it will be the responsibility of the Hamilton County Coroner's Office to determine what caused Jones' death and that police cannot say when that answer will come. But the coroner generally takes one to three days in these kinds of cases, Janke said. Police would not say if Jones appeared to be under the influence of drugs, but Janke said the department expects the coroner to perform toxicology reports on Jones. Janke expressed sympathy for Jones' loved ones, saying, "The loss of human life is always heartbreaking.'' But, Janke said, "It was a violent assault by a very large man,'' and, given the circumstances, the officers' actions' were "consistent with our training procedures.'' Cincinnati City Council Member David Pepper, who today will become chairman of council's Law Committee when the new council is sworn in at City Hall, said late Sunday that he will push for a "quick, transparent disclosure" of the critical facts in the case. "The key is to get as much of what we know out as quickly as possible,'' Pepper said. "I'd expect we'd see some of that in the next day or so, while some things obviously will take a bit longer. "The problem we've had in some of these cases in the past is that people didn't have faith in the process of getting answers, partly because it seemed to take too long. I hope we've learned from that. "We need a transparent, fair and balanced process that gets to the bottom of what happened, and the quicker we get it, the better it will be for everyone.'' The Rev. Damon Lynch III called Jones' death tragic and said he would like to learn more about what precipitated the struggle between officers and Jones. He will be watching the investigation, he said. "I'm somewhat disheartened by some of the comments from some of the top brass in the police department that everything's been done by the book,'' he said. Their comments, he said, "make an investigation seem perfunctory.'' Police Chief Thomas Streicher Jr. was out of town and could not be reached for comment. Roger Webster, president of the local Fraternal Order of Police, was livid about how the officers involved in Jones' arrest were treated. After the arrest, Webster said, police administration rejected his proposal that the officers be given 48 hours to collect their thoughts with their loved ones. They insisted, instead, that they officers endure some eight hours of investigative procedures with limited contact with the outside, Webster said. The officers were sequestered immediately after the incident, read their rights and allowed to call only attorneys and clergy, Webster said. "What criminal acts are you investigating?'' Webster said. "What did they do wrong? "They were in a fight for their lives. "And you wonder why they don't want to work. They don't want to work because they're treated worse than the criminals they arrest.'' Hamilton County court records show Jones was charged in 1998 with possession of cocaine, and he was sent to a community diagnostic and treatment center for examination and later evaluated for possible drug problems. Jones, then living in Loveland, subsequently pleaded guilty to possession of cocaine and in April 1998 was ordered to undergo three years of intensive supervision in the in-patient program at the Talbert House, which offers mental-health, community-corrections and substance-abuse services on Victory Parkway in Cincinnati. Janke said at the press conference Sunday that officers summoned paramedics back to the scene at White Castle after subduing and handcuffing Jones. Janke said Jones had a pulse but was showing signs of distress. Janke said he could not elaborate on that. Janke said not every officer on the scene struck Jones, but that Jones was struck only on the torso, not his head. No one used a Taser on him, Janke said. During the press conference, police showed a videotape of a portion of the fight captured by a camera in one of the cruisers. In it, Jones is seen swinging at one officer, and the pair briefly falling out of the view of the camera as a second officer races to the other's aid. The trio tumble back into the scene, and Jones manages to rise from the ground a few times -- once catching hold of a nightstick -- while Pike and Osterman strike him with their batons, screaming for him to get down and to put his hands behind his back. Other officers run up singly or in pairs and some of them also struggle with Jones. Janke said police intend to study videos from every surveillance camera that recorded Jones' arrest, and that they plan to interview fire department witnesses. Source: http://www.cincypost.com/2003/12/01/cmain120103.html __________________

12-05-2003, 03:42 PM	#2
LordKathen Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: September 15, 2002 Location: Kennewick, WA Age: 53 Posts: 3,166	Anyone? __________________

12-05-2003, 04:18 PM	#6
Rokenn Galvatron Join Date: January 22, 2002 Location: california wine country Age: 61 Posts: 2,193	From the information provide it looks like the police acted responsibly. Hopefully they will get a fairshake on this. __________________ “This is an impressive crowd, the haves and the have mores. <br />Some people call you the elite. <br />I call you my base.”<br />~ George W. Bush (2000)

12-05-2003, 03:46 PM	#3
Maelakin Drow Warrior Join Date: September 16, 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Age: 48 Posts: 257	I would respond, but I don’t feel enough information has been released as of yet to form an opinion. I’m not one for too much idle speculation.

12-05-2003, 03:58 PM	#4
GForce Guest Posts: n/a	Later on, I believe I heard on TV news that the coroner's office ruled it a homicide but that doesn't mean the officers were guilty of police brutality or something like that. Sorry I don't have the source but pretty sure of what I listened to on the news. I saw some of that video too. The one on most of the news I guess and it looked to me that the Jones started the fight. Maybe they went too far is really the question IMO. Should they have used the Taser? I don't know but if that is a policy then maybe they should have instead of resorting to fisticuffs. All in all, I really don't what to judge because I am not a police officer. They do have it tough YET IMO every police officer should go thru required periodical sensitivity training letting them know what to do and not to do in any situation. Also, if a police officer has a history to be involved in deaths when trying to apprehend a suspect, then he/she needs to be re-evaluated to determine if they should be transfered to a less contact oriented position.

12-05-2003, 03:59 PM	#5
pritchke Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: September 5, 2001 Location: Calgary, AB Age: 50 Posts: 3,491	He was 400lbs so probably died of a heart attack due to the sudden stress, plus mixed with the boos didn't help. But without a coronary report it would be tough to say. [ 12-05-2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

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