Faeire Bishop and Elf Bishop, the best route...

[Argonnes]

I decided to sit down and do a little number crunching while waiting for Laundry today on what is the best start method for a Faerie Bishop and an Elf Bishop (the best to races in the game to become Bishops). I decided to go with the following criteria as well, Int and Spd have to maxed out as soon as possible, but playing with the starting attribute points to try to maximize their overall power. I also decided to look at if starting as another caster first and then switching into Bishop would be a good idea, here is the results I came up with.

Bishop required starting attributes: 55 Int, 55 Pie, 55 Dex, 55 Sen
Mage required starting attributes: 60 Int, 55 Dex
Alchemist required starting attributes: 55 Int, 60 Dex
Psionic required starting attributes: 55 Int, 60 Sen
Priest required starting attributes: 60 Pie, 55 Vit

Faerie starting attributes: 25 Str, 55 Int, 35 Pie, 30 Vit, 50 Dex, 60 Spd, 45 Sen

Elf starting attributes: 35 Str, 50 Int, 50 Pie, 35 Vit, 50 Dex, 45 Spd, 40 Sen

I'm going to leave off Str in the listing of attributes since it is not needed to build an effective Bishop.

Faerie

Mage start, 50 bonus points, final attributes: 68 Int (+8), 52 Pie (+17), 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 73 Spd (+13), 57 Sen

Alchmist start, 50 bonus points, final attributes: 68 Int (+13), 52 Pie (+17), 30 Vit, 60 Dex, 73 Spd (+13), 52 Sen (+7)

Psionic start, 45 bonus points, final attributes (1): 68 Int (+13), 49 Pie (+14), 30 Vit, 55 Dex (+5), 73 Spd (+13), 60 Sen

Priest start, 10 bonus points, final attributes (2): 59 Int (+4), 60 Pie, 55 Vit, 52 Dex (+2), 60 Spd, 49 Sen (+4)

Bishop start, 25 bonus points, final attributes: 62 Int (+7), 64 Pie (+9), 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 67 Spd (+7), 57 Sen (+2)

Elf

Mage start, 45 bonus points, final attributes: 68 Int (+8), 57 Pie (+7), 35 Vit, 55 Dex, 60 Spd (+15), 55 Sen (+15)

Alchemist start, 45 bonus points, final attributes: 65 Int (+10), 55 Pie (+5), 35 Vit, 60 Dex, 60 Spd (+15), 55 Sen (+15)

Psionic start, 35 bonus points, final attributes: 65 Int (+10), 60 Pie (+10), 35 Vit, 55 Dex (+5), 55 Spd (+10), Sen 60

Priest start, 30 bonus points, final attributes (2): 59 Int (+9), 60 Pie, 55 Vit, 52 Dex (+2), 55 Spd (+10), 49 Sen (+9)

Bishop start, 30 bonus points, final attributes: 65 Int (+10), 65 Pie (+10), 35 Vit, 55 Dex, 55 Spd (+10), 55 Sen


(1) - starting as a Psionic will require the Faerie the spend an additional level as a Psionic before switching to Bishop

(2) - starting as a Priest will require an additional level as a Priest before switching to Bishop


Achievement of 100 Int(3), Spd, and Pie

Faerie

Mage: 10/11/25 can also achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen by lv 26

Alchemist: 11/11/26 and can achieve maximum in Sen at 26 as well or could achieve Dex at 25

Psionic: 11/11/26 and can achieve maximum in Sen at 25 or Dex at 26

Priest: 14/16/26 and can achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen at 31

Bishop: 12/12/24 can also achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen 27

Elf

Mage: 11/15/25 and also achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen by lv 30

Alchemist: 11/15/26 and also achieve maximum in Dex by 29 or Sen by lv 30

Psionic: 11/16/25 and also achieve maximum in Sen by 30 and Dex by 31

Priest: 14/18/28 and also achieve maximum in Dex or Sen by 33

Bishop: 11/16/23 and also achieve maximum in Dex or Sen by 31

(3) - This assumes that getting the 5 Int from the Tryton fountain prior to maxing out Int


Faerie

So, looking at the above information, it can be easily seen that for a Faerie that is to be a Bishop, they should start off first as a Mage as they will achieve maximum in Int two levels ahead of if they start as a Bishop and also one level ahead in Spd. They do lose out by one level in Pie, but they also can achieve maximum in either Sen or Dex one level before the Bishop. Starting Alchemst isn't a bad idea either as they are very similar to a Mage (only getting Int maxed one level later). The only thing edging out the Alchemist and going Mage instead is the fact that a Mage starts with point already in the elements they start with (7 points each in Fire, Water, Air, and Mental) while the Alchemist does not, but starts with 4 points less in Realm (Mage start 8 in Thaumaturgy while Alchemist starts 12 in Alchemy). Psionic isn't a bad choice either, but, you have to spend two levels as a Psionic before you can switching into Bishop. Flat out though, bad idea to start Priest and then switch into Bishop. You take a lot longer to achieve maximum in Int and Spd that way. So, when starting a Faerie that will become a Bishop, don't bother starting Priest, best to actually start as a Mage or an Alchemist first (this will depend on taste) and then switch into Bishop.

Elf

Like the Faerie above, don't start Priest if you wish to have an Elven Bishop. Unlike the Faerie though, starting as a Bishop is actually going to benefit you a little more as you will get Pie two levels before starting as a Mage, but Spd one level later. With the Elf, it almost not a bad idea to start off as anything except as a Priest as they all seem to get Int, Spd, and Pie around the same time and will depend more on your preference of which spells you would like to get first.


So, the next time you start out a party that will contain a Bishop, hopefully this will help out in your decision.

[Ziggurat]

Verrry well done. I'll remember that before I start a Bishop again. Perhaps Alch edges out Mage because they can heal (this is important if you have a small party). My only point of contention is the focus on speed. I tend not to max speed for casters, but I do try to get up to 80 or so eventually. I don't even max piety. I put some in strength, vit and dex. If I have a Bard or Gadgeteer (and most others) I definitely go for speed.

[Argonnes]

The reason for Spd after Int is because of trying to get protection spells up before the enemy casters start casting (Elemental Shield and Soul Shield as well as others that are combat only). Also, the other reason is for debilitation of the enemy as well.

As to Alchemist edging Mage based on Heal, not really. Since you are only spending a single level as the starting class before switching to Bishop, you can always pick up Heal at level 2 (Bishop 1) as the monsters in early monastery probably won't do enough damage to kill any character.

[Ziggurat]

True about heal, you don't really need it a lev 1. I have been working with a small party with one hybrid caster who can heal so over focused on that. I didn't even get any heal til lev 5, now that I think of it. There has been an ongoing debate on fast vs. slow casters. Yes, a faster caster (hmm, could make this easily into a tongue-twister by adding a few adjs) does get shields up quicker and get off an early attack. A slow caster has the benefit against cloud like spells later on which tend to annoy me. It is so nice to cast "remove clouds" or whatever and see them cleared out before the next round begins and they can take effect. Especially Death Clouds. You can increase speed with amulets but not decrease it.

[dplax]

Great information Argonnes. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

However you could also start a bishop as a stealth using class and take up stealth to acceptable limits, at first level and then change to bishop.

[Argonnes]

You could always take Purify air on either a Valk or a Lord and have them be slow, since slowness for them doesn't make much of a difference. I realize this takes away from an offensive punch, but, it does give you an out if you are going to be dealing with cloud casters.

Also, going with a Rogue type class first would hurt you a bit more as you would lose out on some very useful bonus points and stealth doesn't increase quickly enough in the early game (lv 5 or less), so you would need to spend too many levels as a Rogue. Better to hold off till later, say when you are in the lv 10 to 15 range, switch into Rogue for 1 level there and then stick there until you get your stealth to where you like, then switch back to Bishop. This way you only push back getting your level 6 and 7 spells 2 levels versus pushing them back 5 or more levels.

[ 05-02-2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Argonnes ]

[dplax]

Originally posted by Argonnes: Also, going with a Rogue type class first would hurt you a bit more as you would lose out on some very useful bonus points and stealth doesn't increase quickly enough in the early game (lv 5 or less), so you would need to spend too many levels as a Rogue.

You could keep your rogue/bishop at lvl 1 until stealth gets up to say 75. Your party could progress in levels and then when stealth hits the level you want you could make him a bishop and level up all of the levels accumulated. I am however not sure whether the stealth here would be worth losing out on the magic skill increases. So I partly agree with going rogue later.

[Scatter]

In your calculations, did you consider also the free 5 Int you can get in the game?

[MasterPooBaa]

And what about the ability to carry stuff?
Ive tried both and personally prefer the elf as u can carry more and equip more 'stuff'.

[Argonnes]

Yep, it's built in Scatter.

As to carrying stuff, that's what the other 5 characters in the party are for... Really, which race you choose comes down to personal preference, but Faerie does have a couple of advantages that the Elf doesn't. Having spell points replenish faster is a big plus in my book and is well worth the lose of being able to carry more stuff.