Haste (mostly strategic - but contains some spoilers)

[EEWorzelle]

A lot of insights were given a while back by veteran players attending this board concerning Speed and Haste. I couldn't find that thread and apparently I'm not supposed to bump it on this board, for some reason, if I do. Know that I am reporting... insights about the game here, but do not claim any of it as my own discoveries or ideas. A new development has been brought to light about this and I wanted to post this here so those of us posting here also have the opportunity to "wring it out" a bit.

Haste takes effect immediately when it is cast, with no delay. The amount of Speed it adds is so large that all characters can easily be at 125 Speed, with all benefits, while it is in effect. The strategy, which has held up on other boards too, AFAIK, is to always have one character cast Haste in the first round. The idea was to have one fast character that could cast Haste fast and then everyone in the party would immediately have 125 Speed.

That's true and what happens (at least in those portions of the game where casting Haste is possible) but, as pointed out by a couple players on another board, that does not change the order of casting spells in the round it is cast. Maybe some of you already know about this, but if this is new news or if you doubt it, then do some experimentation in your own games to verify. There is no need for speculation about it. There are some implications of this:

1) Casting Haste in the first round is important, but there is little benefit given by casting Haste early in the first round rather than later in the first round. Cast early in the first round, it will give extra ranged swings and attacks, for those players who have not already moved, and it would do the same for melee but there is rarely melee contact at the beginning of the first round of combat. Also, many times those who would benefit from this little ranged bonus need to cast a spell or take a potion in the first round, before the enemy comes into contact.

2) Arguably the most important thing to do fast when entering combat in this game is cast Soul Shield and Element Shield (and possibly Eye for Eye in some situations). If you do not rely on always surprising your magically-tough foes, then there is no substitute for the casters of these two shield spells being fast (100 Speed and Snake Speed. 100 Senses alone is probably not enough). Is there a problem if you don't cast these before the enemy spell casters get to cast? Not usually, but sometimes they will cripple your casters magically then, without screens, systematically cut the party to ribbons. Apparently, some players take the time and effort using X-Ray and Chameleon, to gain the skills and patience to always surprise the enemy. If you have fast Soul and Element Shield casters, you can get there first even without the element of surprise. Without those shields you may need to reload every now and then (unless playing IM).

Unless I missed it and you all say, "yeah we knew about that months ago," the new piece is that casting Haste fast, early in the first round does not guarantee getting your Soul and Element Shields up in time. Without this, the benefit of Haste, in the round it is cast, is very minimal, so much so that the Haster does not need to be fast (unless you want that character to also be fast under water for unrelated reasons).

For example a Haster with a Speed of 55 before casting Haste, and 125 Speed afterward, will still get it cast sometime in the first round if not crippled and prevented from doing so by the enemy. Preventing crippling is a matter of casting Soul and Element Shield fast (or in the surprise round), and casting Haste will not bump a slow caster to the front of the line, in the round it is cast.

Make sense?

[Nomad]

It make great sense EE. However, I am from the camp of speed, speed, and more speed for all( if possible). In reality I try to have at least 3 characters with good -> great speed, one for Soul Shield, one for Element Shield, and one for whatever needs to be done. The minimum speed that I like is 50 and I try to get everyone up to at least 60( sometimes with items that increase speed).

I can also argue that a character with Heal All could be useful if slow, cast Heal All in the first round of those hard fights and then if there is damage it will be healed. It usually turns out that my Haster is also fast( mostly a Bard, sometimes a Monk).

Thanks for the excellent post EE.

[Kakero]

yes, this haste was discussed in this board some months ago. however,

- your party is not always paralyzed by the enemies in the first round. by the time you meet magical enemy caster, your party resistance should already be high enough to negate those harmful spell.

- you should cast most protective spell before any combat and keep them up all the time.

- healer are best when they are slow.

[Wereboar]

- healer are best when they are slow.

IMO healers are best when they are very fast. I usually develop my bard as shooter (push sense for eagle eye, high dex for multiple shots, good speed), and he'll usually go before any enemy, even without haste. So he can 'heal all' at the start of a combat round if necessary, before any additional damage.

[jsalsb]

Sometimes healers are better fast, sometimes slow. I like having a fast and a slow one (usually my valkerie has better speed than my priest or bishop). The fast one can be used in the rounds when immediate action is needed, and the slow one in the rounds when the party is fine at the start of round, but I'm anticipating some heavy damage to come. And actions like purify air (very important once you get to monsters that cast death cloud) might as well be cast at the end of round.

As for it not mattering if haste is cast early or late in the round... I disagree, early is better. Especially against spell casters that cast magic and missile screen spells, you want to get haste up early so that your casters and archers can do their dammage before the enemy's screens go up.

The only thing that really bugs me about haste, is it making my archers use up all their powerful missiles (mystic arrows, lightning bolts...) on weak monsters when I'd just as soon wade in and have them slash with their short range weapons. For these combats, I don't use haste.

Get the Ivory blade from Ferro... great source of limitless haste spells (and quite a nice weapon too).

[Wereboar]

And actions like purify air (very important once you get to monsters that cast death cloud) might as well be cast at the end of round.

Well, there are usually two fight in the game where the enemies will cast many dangerous cloud spells (SE Wilderness Temple, and Djinni of the Clouds on AP). Casting purify air at max level each round will drain your mana fast, and casting at a lower level will probably help nothing.

As for it not mattering if haste is cast early or late in the round... I disagree, early is better. Especially against spell casters that cast magic and missile screen spells, you want to get haste up early so that your casters and archers can do their dammage before the enemy's screens go up.

Thats exactly the point EEWorzelle was talking about. He claims that the early haste spell won't let your other spell casters act earlier. If this is correct, an fast haste spell isn't better than a later one.

The only thing that really bugs me about haste, is it making my archers use up all their powerful missiles (mystic arrows, lightning bolts...) on weak monsters when I'd just as soon wade in and have them slash with their short range weapons. For these combats, I don't use haste.

Why not use less powerful ammo in these fights?

[Gimli]

"That's true and what happens (at least in those portions of the game where casting Haste is possible) but, as pointed out by a couple players on another board, that does not change the order of casting spells in the round it is cast."

Interesting - what is the scope of "casting spells"? Does this also include using bard instruments and gadgets? What about using items/bombs/powders? Can haste still speed up spell effects from those sources? If so I'd say the value of it being cast first in the round goes up.

Also one observation. I usually have access to the haste spell from more than one character in my party. So from this thread, it sounds like a good idea to have a party member who can cast haste *and* a shield type spell (ex - a bard, can either use the rousing drums or soulful sax) be fast. And have another "slow" character who can cast haste be the "backup" haster in a fight where the magic shields are required.

So for example, have a fast bard who usually casts haste in round 1. You get whatever "haste first" benefits there are to be had that way. If you need magic shielding fast (and sometimes you can use surprise to not need it), have the fast example bard put up the shield instead of hasting; and have the slow (at least in round 1), backup haster put up haste. Have another fast character around who knows the other shield spell and have him put it up as well. Sounds like with a combination like that you'd have all the bases covered. And it would require devoting points to speed for only 2 characters.

I also think you can gain surprise alot, especially after a few times through, when you know where certain opponents are going to be (like the rynjin in the swamp guarding the tunnel to bayjin). I've never been able to do it 100% of the time in all fights though, so the speed shields seem like good insurance.

[EEWorzelle]

Thanks all, for your responses!

I guess nobody had any grossly contrasting game observations in the short time this post has been up.

Questions remain, of course:

"Does this also include using bard instruments and gadgets?"

The answer is that I don't know, Gimli. I did some experimentation last night, but it was inconclusive. I probably could have done more but I was running around the Rapax Castle with my current party last night, getting stuff, and got... uh... distracted.

As a programmer, if I were coding it, I would figure out based upon initiative when all the spells and other factors (such as whether walk or run had been selected) when things such as spells or attacks would take place. When an actual attack took place, however, I would use speed and other factors at that moment, to determine the number of swings and the effectiveness of them. It would be possible, upon the event of something changing initiative of the party or opponents, to recalculate everything based upon the new initiative levels and how much time had already passed in the round at the old initiative levels, but... it would add code development time and cost. It would be easier to just do that once per round, which would explain what has been observed.

That being said, I do not know how it was coded. All we can do is go by our game observations.

One note: I have always played in expert mode, so do not have a lot of experiences in normal or easy. I figured any game observations or suggestions that make the game easier in expert mode would also benefit players in normal or easy. An observation was made on another board, however, that while getting Soul and Element Shield up first is absolutely critical in expert mode, the other modes are somewhat forgiving. This player observed that when the party is blinded in expert mode, typically all or most of them are (that is my usual experience if that is allowed to happen before protections are in place), while in normal mode maybe only a couple are.

Thus while the information above makes a good argument in any case that Haste does not necessarily require a fast caster, it's secondary point (the necessity of getting Soul and Element Shields up, in addition to having Magic Screen in place already, prior to battle, typically at Level 7) is not necessarily as strong, if not playing expert mode. I'm sure it's a great benefit and, as Gimli said, "insurance", regardless of mode being played, but may not be a "necessity."

Happy gaming!

[ 02-14-2003, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[jsalsb]

Well, I read that everyone feels that haste does nothing to improve spellcasting initiative; but I have to humbly disagree, from my own experience. I know that in Rapax Castle if my haste caster gets the spell off right away (which he usually does because he has high natural speed and senses), then my priest and wizard (with so-so speeds and senses) casting death wish and freeze all in the same first round get their spells off successfully before the legions of Rapax adversaries get their magic screens up. If I don't cast haste, then the priest and wizard usually cast late in the round, and are much less -if at all- successful. Now, I have no actual technical knowledge about the game, but the empirical evidence seems to suggest that haste does effect spell casting in the same round, at least from the scenario I've described.

And I don't seem to remember a difference in this between normal and expert mode, but I could be mistaken there. I played my last game on expert mode about a year ago, and the game I just played now was in normal mode (my first playthrough since that year-ago game).

[EEWorzelle]

Jon, it appears you are presenting contrary evidence here from your own game experiences. Thank you for that. This post was made so those of us playing and posting here can check out what is being said and claimed, over various situations and settings.

Now have you tested enough to be certain? Do you have an apples-apples comparison against the same enemies wherein, playing the battle a couple times without Haste in first round your Priest and Mage do not go before the enemy and another couple times where Haste is cast and they do? The idea is to eliminate the possibility that your Priest and Mage are going first because "so-so" Initiative happens to be better than that of these particular enemies. In particular I have not found most Rapax to be all that fast, but I don't recall all of them for certain. Some may certainly be. The key is to observe a before and after with the same battle rather than thinking back over different battles. There is some randomness involved, but playing the battle multiple times each way should establish the truth of it.

In my own games when testing this I have not seen this effect or anything contrary to what Shoujo and Merkin on the other board found through their own games.

Like you, none of the other players posting has intimate knowledge of how the code in the game works. All we can do is deduce from observations such as yours and what other players see.

Logically, as mentioned above, there should be some, at least partial, effect in the same round, but other players and I have not detected any through our observations.

Regardless of you your follow-up investigation comes out, thanks!