Senses vs. Speed for initiative.....

GetCool · 01-17-2002, 05:01 PM

I have been reading Merkin's "Growing the perfect [insert class here]" threads, and there has been talk recently about whether it is better to pump up your Speed or your Senses for initiative. Merkin has concluded that for spellcasters, speed and senses are identical - no matter which one you raise will help your initiative just the same. Now, I have a few questions to carry this discussion further, as I am a bit confused on a few things:

1) If you choose to pump up either speed or senses, can you completely neglect the other? Let's say, for instance, I make a Faerie mage. Since the Faerie already has such a high speed rating, can I afford to raise speed to 100 and never put a single point in senses? Remember, I'm talking only about initiative here, so this is assuming my Faerie mage is not going to use any skills that rely on senses.

2) Does this apply to every class, or just spellcasters? For example, if I made a Ranger and maxed out his senses (completely ignoring speed), would I have the same initiative as if I maxed out his speed instead?

Basically my questions boil down to this: If you don't need both speed and senses for your character's particular skills (a Ninja, for example, would need both, but a Psionic would not), can you max out one and completely ignore the other and have the same initiative bonus in the end?

GetCool · 01-17-2002, 05:06 PM

An addendum to the above:

Also take into account if a character has a rather low score in a particular stat. A Mook Psionic, for example, has a speed of 35 upon creation. Could I leave his speed that low while only increasing senses, or would he actually be penalized for having a speed that low, even if he had 100 senses?

MaskedFrog · 01-17-2002, 05:19 PM

I have some general findings based on my current party. I am at work so I cannot get specifics but I will gather them tonight and post them tomorrow.

As my examples I will use three characters: Felpur Ninja, Mook Ranger, and Faerie Psionic.

Mook Ranger
100 Senses
100 Speed

Ninja
100 Speed
70+ Senses

Faerie Psionic
100 Speed
Starting Value for Senses

All classes have approximately the same skill in Snake Speed.

If I remeber correctly these three characters have close to the same base init but the Ninja will go first because of bonus to init for hand to hand. Ranger usually goes slightly before Psionic. If Init calculations are based off average of two values addition of bonuses from both values the Ranger with both stats maxed should have the highest init. Since this not the case I think the higher of the two stats counts more for bonuses and if the other stat is also hight you get an additional minor bonus.

Personally I think pushing speed over senses for init is the better route since speed opens up snake speed which improves init. This is just my opinion.

Look for more concrete numbers tomorrow. I would also be interested to see other peoples numbers for Base Init, Speed, Senses, and Snake Speed for comparison.

GetCool · 01-17-2002, 05:35 PM

Thanks for the info, it's quite interesting. I had a hunch that the two stats were the same for initiative, and it will be interesting to see what you and others come up with later; I haven't played the game much yet so I can't really do any testing of my own.

About your opinion of speed over senses -- I agree about the snake speed, but it really depends on the particular class. If I'm already raising my Psionic's senses to maximum, it's not very practical to max out speed to get snake speed.

Merkin · 01-18-2002, 01:35 AM

It *seems*, the more I play with this, that as far as initiatinve goes, they have exactly the same value wheter for spellcasting or combat, in any combination, each point of SEN or SPD seems to provide .2 initiative points.

I disagree that SPD is ALWAYS the way to go, just because of snakespeed. SEN helps with close and ranged combat, artifacts, searching, mythology, communication, and scouting.

OTOH, Speed is essential for getting multiple attacks.

So which to bump should be on a case by case basis, but yes, they provide the same amount of help in raising init.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Merkin ]

Warhammer · 01-18-2002, 04:17 AM

I agree that Speed and Senses have the same effect on initiative.
0.2 x value

All other things being equal. A character with SEN 75 SPD 35 will have the same init as a character with SEN 35 SPD 75.

So it has to be determined in a case per case basis, which one to improve (first)

Keep in mind that speed also affects the AC and extra swings, and senses affects the to hit ratio. Consider which of the two Expert skill is more usefull to the character and which of the two is more important to their skills.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Warhammer ]

MaskedFrog · 01-18-2002, 08:48 AM

I did a little further research on this subject last night and I thought I had it figured out. When you create a new character the init rating goes up by 1 for each full 5 points of Sense or Speed above 25 starting with a base of 1 point. I tried many different combinations of Sense and Speed and this formula works.

Now for the confusing part. I looked at my party that are all floating about level 20 and the forumla no longer worked. At first I tried to apply it to the one character without snake speed but I ended up with a higher init than the formula showed. The one thing I did not try was removing all equipment to see if any piece of magical equipment was increasing init. I guess I will have to try that this weekend.

Can anybody else just verify that my above formula works for them?

Brak · 01-18-2002, 10:47 AM

Sounds like we are getting all the way down to the nitty grits here, excellent. But a very basic question in the original post seems to have gone unanswered, and I would like to know the answer as well.

"If you choose to pump up either speed or senses, can you completely neglect the other? "

Since most people will be pumping one rather than the other this is especially important to know once the one gets maxed. Once my Ranger has his senses maxed out, will he continue to see speed increases by raising speed?

GetCool · 01-18-2002, 02:16 PM

Yes, Brak, that is exactly what I wanted to know when I posted the original question. So now that we've established that each point of speed/senses adds 0.2 initiative (above 25 -- thank you MaskedFrog for finding this out), this question becomes more interesting. If a character has 45 speed and 100 senses, would he have an initiative bonus of... oh, let's see, 15 (taking the bonus of the 100 senses only), or would it be 19 (taking the bonuses of both stats and adding them)? I have a hunch that only the highest stat matters, because as MaskedFrog pointed out, his Ranger with 100 speed and 100 senses should have the highest init of his party, but he doesn't.

I think this will all be made clear if someone removes all the equipment from their party and tests their initiatives.

MaskedFrog · 01-18-2002, 02:43 PM

To answer the main question, both stats improve init. I have done tests with fresh 1st level characters that I created with various speed and senses. When I made two characters with a speed of 60 but one with a sense of 60 and the other with a sense of 55, the one with the sense of 55 had an init of one lower.

This weekend I will strip all my characters down and compare their inits with no equipment. There should be only three things affecting init: speed, senses, and snake speed. Hopefully I can finally get to the bottom of this.

01-18-2002, 01:35 AM	#5
Merkin Manshoon Join Date: August 29, 2001 Location: Santa Rosa, CA Posts: 186	It seems, the more I play with this, that as far as initiatinve goes, they have exactly the same value wheter for spellcasting or combat, in any combination, each point of SEN or SPD seems to provide .2 initiative points. I disagree that SPD is ALWAYS the way to go, just because of snakespeed. SEN helps with close and ranged combat, artifacts, searching, mythology, communication, and scouting. OTOH, Speed is essential for getting multiple attacks. So which to bump should be on a case by case basis, but yes, they provide the same amount of help in raising init. [ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Merkin ] __________________ Proprietor of:<br />Spydah\'s Web<br />A Gaming Community

01-18-2002, 04:17 AM	#6
Warhammer Baaz Draconian Join Date: December 4, 2001 Location: Denmark Age: 52 Posts: 731	I agree that Speed and Senses have the same effect on initiative. 0.2 x value All other things being equal. A character with SEN 75 SPD 35 will have the same init as a character with SEN 35 SPD 75. So it has to be determined in a case per case basis, which one to improve (first) Keep in mind that speed also affects the AC and extra swings, and senses affects the to hit ratio. Consider which of the two Expert skill is more usefull to the character and which of the two is more important to their skills. [ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: Warhammer ] __________________ It was a new day yesterday<br />but it\'s an old day now.<br /><i>Jethro Tull</i><br />

01-18-2002, 10:47 AM	#8
Brak Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: December 4, 2001 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Posts: 37	Sounds like we are getting all the way down to the nitty grits here, excellent. But a very basic question in the original post seems to have gone unanswered, and I would like to know the answer as well. "If you choose to pump up either speed or senses, can you completely neglect the other? " Since most people will be pumping one rather than the other this is especially important to know once the one gets maxed. Once my Ranger has his senses maxed out, will he continue to see speed increases by raising speed? __________________ I have a magic toenail, I keep it on my foot - Brak<br />

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01-17-2002, 05:01 PM	#1
GetCool Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 14, 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9	I have been reading Merkin's "Growing the perfect [insert class here]" threads, and there has been talk recently about whether it is better to pump up your Speed or your Senses for initiative. Merkin has concluded that for spellcasters, speed and senses are identical - no matter which one you raise will help your initiative just the same. Now, I have a few questions to carry this discussion further, as I am a bit confused on a few things: 1) If you choose to pump up either speed or senses, can you completely neglect the other? Let's say, for instance, I make a Faerie mage. Since the Faerie already has such a high speed rating, can I afford to raise speed to 100 and never put a single point in senses? Remember, I'm talking only about initiative here, so this is assuming my Faerie mage is not going to use any skills that rely on senses. 2) Does this apply to every class, or just spellcasters? For example, if I made a Ranger and maxed out his senses (completely ignoring speed), would I have the same initiative as if I maxed out his speed instead? Basically my questions boil down to this: If you don't need both speed and senses for your character's particular skills (a Ninja, for example, would need both, but a Psionic would not), can you max out one and completely ignore the other and have the same initiative bonus in the end?

01-17-2002, 05:06 PM	#2
GetCool Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 14, 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9	An addendum to the above: Also take into account if a character has a rather low score in a particular stat. A Mook Psionic, for example, has a speed of 35 upon creation. Could I leave his speed that low while only increasing senses, or would he actually be penalized for having a speed that low, even if he had 100 senses?

01-17-2002, 05:19 PM	#3
MaskedFrog Drow Warrior Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: Madison, CT Posts: 292	I have some general findings based on my current party. I am at work so I cannot get specifics but I will gather them tonight and post them tomorrow. As my examples I will use three characters: Felpur Ninja, Mook Ranger, and Faerie Psionic. Mook Ranger 100 Senses 100 Speed Ninja 100 Speed 70+ Senses Faerie Psionic 100 Speed Starting Value for Senses All classes have approximately the same skill in Snake Speed. If I remeber correctly these three characters have close to the same base init but the Ninja will go first because of bonus to init for hand to hand. Ranger usually goes slightly before Psionic. If Init calculations are based off average of two values addition of bonuses from both values the Ranger with both stats maxed should have the highest init. Since this not the case I think the higher of the two stats counts more for bonuses and if the other stat is also hight you get an additional minor bonus. Personally I think pushing speed over senses for init is the better route since speed opens up snake speed which improves init. This is just my opinion. Look for more concrete numbers tomorrow. I would also be interested to see other peoples numbers for Base Init, Speed, Senses, and Snake Speed for comparison.

01-17-2002, 05:35 PM	#4
GetCool Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 14, 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9	Thanks for the info, it's quite interesting. I had a hunch that the two stats were the same for initiative, and it will be interesting to see what you and others come up with later; I haven't played the game much yet so I can't really do any testing of my own. About your opinion of speed over senses -- I agree about the snake speed, but it really depends on the particular class. If I'm already raising my Psionic's senses to maximum, it's not very practical to max out speed to get snake speed.

01-18-2002, 08:48 AM	#7
MaskedFrog Drow Warrior Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: Madison, CT Posts: 292	I did a little further research on this subject last night and I thought I had it figured out. When you create a new character the init rating goes up by 1 for each full 5 points of Sense or Speed above 25 starting with a base of 1 point. I tried many different combinations of Sense and Speed and this formula works. Now for the confusing part. I looked at my party that are all floating about level 20 and the forumla no longer worked. At first I tried to apply it to the one character without snake speed but I ended up with a higher init than the formula showed. The one thing I did not try was removing all equipment to see if any piece of magical equipment was increasing init. I guess I will have to try that this weekend. Can anybody else just verify that my above formula works for them?

01-18-2002, 02:16 PM	#9
GetCool Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 14, 2002 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 9	Yes, Brak, that is exactly what I wanted to know when I posted the original question. So now that we've established that each point of speed/senses adds 0.2 initiative (above 25 -- thank you MaskedFrog for finding this out), this question becomes more interesting. If a character has 45 speed and 100 senses, would he have an initiative bonus of... oh, let's see, 15 (taking the bonus of the 100 senses only), or would it be 19 (taking the bonuses of both stats and adding them)? I have a hunch that only the highest stat matters, because as MaskedFrog pointed out, his Ranger with 100 speed and 100 senses should have the highest init of his party, but he doesn't. I think this will all be made clear if someone removes all the equipment from their party and tests their initiatives.

01-18-2002, 02:43 PM	#10
MaskedFrog Drow Warrior Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: Madison, CT Posts: 292	To answer the main question, both stats improve init. I have done tests with fresh 1st level characters that I created with various speed and senses. When I made two characters with a speed of 60 but one with a sense of 60 and the other with a sense of 55, the one with the sense of 55 had an init of one lower. This weekend I will strip all my characters down and compare their inits with no equipment. There should be only three things affecting init: speed, senses, and snake speed. Hopefully I can finally get to the bottom of this.

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